Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

Find out what happened on the show.

More November 2006 Show Boards.


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November 19, 2006, 10:31 am PST

How do they read?

Quote From: sneakers145

My children have always been unschooled and are thriving.  Not only do they have a broad base of knowledge about the world around them in all 'subjects' (we don't teach to subjects, nor do we teach) but they are articulate, compassionate, social, and get along well with their peers (public schooled and homeschooled).  They are involved in outside activities (skateboarding, horseback riding) and loved by their instructors and camp counselors. 

 

Unschooling = educational neglect?  You might think that based on the fact that kids learn what they want when they want,  but when a child is allowed to follow their passions, the rest falls into place.  At its core is TRUST.  They may not follow the timetable of the public school system, but their 'study' of certain things isn't limited to a week, or a chapter, or until the test.  They can explore a topic as deeply as they choose.  A love of horses leads to all sorts of interesting things: history, geography, math, animal husbandry, sports, anatomy, etc.  Skateboarding has led my son into physics, geometry, geography, math, and sports.

 

Our topics of conversation during a normal day of living covers anything from politics and government (thanks to the recent elections) to astronomy to botany, trading, as well as hefty doses of math, reading, and writing.  not by worksheets or homework, but by doing the things they love.

 

Until you've immersed yourself into the world of unschooling  you have no idea what it's really about.  If you want statistics that prove we're not a bunch of whackos raising delinquents or gas station attendants, then go to www.sudval.org.  A school where kids not only make and enforce the rules of the school, including hiring and firing of staff, but their whole educational philosophy is unschooling.  The kids do what they want, all day, every day.  YET, they have a 30 year track record of success.

 

Unschooling isn't for everyone.  But it's not a decision made lightly for those of us who choose it for our families.  I see myself more of my children's facilitator than educator.  My job is to provide experiences and to strew their path with cool stuff.  It's my job to answer their questions and help them find the answers.  I personally am a lifelong learner and learn every single day right along with my kids.  And it's amazing what I learn from them!

 

I'm happy to be raising responsible people whose love of learning, creativity, and independent thinking hasn't been squashed out of them.  They are confident in who they are, are comfortable making decisions, and don't  bow down to peer pressure.  I love who my kids are as people, who they are right now.  And I have confidence that they will succeed in life and achieve any goals they set for themselves now and in the future.  They are self-starters.

 

Unschooling is the polar opposite of educational neglect.  But I can guarantee that most people, including Dr. Phil, have no idea what true unschooling actually is.

 Don't get me wrong, I home school...but, if you don't teach them.........how do they or how are they learn (ing) read, write, spell, and do basic math? I just feel these are VERY important to make sure a child knows before going off into the world (aside from other subjects).
 
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November 19, 2006, 10:33 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: sneakers145

My children have always been unschooled and are thriving.  Not only do they have a broad base of knowledge about the world around them in all 'subjects' (we don't teach to subjects, nor do we teach) but they are articulate, compassionate, social, and get along well with their peers (public schooled and homeschooled).  They are involved in outside activities (skateboarding, horseback riding) and loved by their instructors and camp counselors. 

 

Unschooling = educational neglect?  You might think that based on the fact that kids learn what they want when they want,  but when a child is allowed to follow their passions, the rest falls into place.  At its core is TRUST.  They may not follow the timetable of the public school system, but their 'study' of certain things isn't limited to a week, or a chapter, or until the test.  They can explore a topic as deeply as they choose.  A love of horses leads to all sorts of interesting things: history, geography, math, animal husbandry, sports, anatomy, etc.  Skateboarding has led my son into physics, geometry, geography, math, and sports.

 

Our topics of conversation during a normal day of living covers anything from politics and government (thanks to the recent elections) to astronomy to botany, trading, as well as hefty doses of math, reading, and writing.  not by worksheets or homework, but by doing the things they love.

 

Until you've immersed yourself into the world of unschooling  you have no idea what it's really about.  If you want statistics that prove we're not a bunch of whackos raising delinquents or gas station attendants, then go to www.sudval.org.  A school where kids not only make and enforce the rules of the school, including hiring and firing of staff, but their whole educational philosophy is unschooling.  The kids do what they want, all day, every day.  YET, they have a 30 year track record of success.

 

Unschooling isn't for everyone.  But it's not a decision made lightly for those of us who choose it for our families.  I see myself more of my children's facilitator than educator.  My job is to provide experiences and to strew their path with cool stuff.  It's my job to answer their questions and help them find the answers.  I personally am a lifelong learner and learn every single day right along with my kids.  And it's amazing what I learn from them!

 

I'm happy to be raising responsible people whose love of learning, creativity, and independent thinking hasn't been squashed out of them.  They are confident in who they are, are comfortable making decisions, and don't  bow down to peer pressure.  I love who my kids are as people, who they are right now.  And I have confidence that they will succeed in life and achieve any goals they set for themselves now and in the future.  They are self-starters.

 

Unschooling is the polar opposite of educational neglect.  But I can guarantee that most people, including Dr. Phil, have no idea what true unschooling actually is.

I do not know enough about unschooling to support or dispute it, but I am wondering something. Other than your own observations, how do you KNOW your children are doing well and are going to be ready for the adult world and gainful employment? I am not suggesting that they won't, I'm simply wondering if there is any other form of assessment other than anecdotal.
 
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November 19, 2006, 10:36 am PST

oppss

Quote From: cmkennedy124

I have two kids I home school (6th and 9th grade). One of my children has High-Functioing Autism and Bipolar and the other is a math/science whiz which Public School tests to show.
We chose to stop Public school because my district was failing (not even trying to teach) my youngest with Autism. Teachers just stick her in a room by herself all day or told me to pick her up because they had no clue what to do with her (their words not mine). I now home school both because it's me choice and I could not stand to fight the schools or see my children pushed aside any longer. Not all schools systems are the same. I WISH they could go to Public school...but it's not a choice right now.

#1) I do not think any parent should home school unless they have an education of at least a high-school level. I say this, as a college educated person,. because you can't teach what you don't know. My pet peeve is people talking about things they no NOTHING about.

#2 I teach my children using curriculum, that I picked from thousands, to give them the best education possible. You don't have to spend and arm and a leg for this either. I have curriculum that uses weekly/quarterly test, 180 days of instruction, up-to-date information, and one that requires my kids to think.

#3 I base my kids classes in high school on what the Public School requires so they can get into a good college.

#4 We live in a college town and ALL three said they take home schooled children. All I need to do is have a transcript made out, give them classes they require on a high school transcript, and have them take an SAT/ACT.

#5 I belong to www.HSLDA.org (Home School Legal Defence Assisiation) they give you all the tips and tools needed to make your child's education the nest it can be (special needs and all) AND they defend our rights as well as educate the rest of the world about home schooling (squashing myths and pre-judgments)

#6 My kids make A's, B's, and C' like all other kids.....if I gave them all A's for nothing...well ACT/SAT would proove I did not; I am just as hard as my teachers were on me.

#7 We teach out children to be individuals and not act like everyone else. We socialize them from church, clubs like 4H and Girls Scouts, getting an after school job, or voluteering somewhere.

#8 My child will be able to pay for college with Stafford loans, Pell grants, their parent's help, AND scholorships.

Please do not knowck home schoolers unless you know ALL the facts.
 Sorry about a couple typing errors....I was in a hurry to watch a movie with the family.
I wrote no's instead of Know, Knowck instead of knock, and nest instead of best.
As my child would say..."opppss, my bad". *smile* But, that's what I get for being in a hurry.
 
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November 19, 2006, 10:38 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: julie1418

 I will agree that homeschooling is not for everyone, it is only for people who truly care about the education their child recieves.

 

So parents who don't home school don't care about the education of their children. Wow!

 

As a former school administrator who has watched countless children revolve in and out of homeschooling, I can tell you that your evidence is purely anecdotal and completely biased. I am sure you know many successful homeschooling families, but that doesn't mean there aren't many unsuccessful homeschooling families. You don't know them because they are not joining your network and keeping active in all the work and commitment it takes to educate a child.

 

I am glad your state has some sort of regulation. My state pretty much lets any parents simply say they are homeschooling, fill out a withdrawal form, and that's that. many parents pull their kids out of public schools because they are tired of the school informing them that children are not behaving or participating in their learning. Then they get them home and realize that their kids will misbehave, not cooperate, and refuse to learn at home too! HUGE surprise!

 

I have a Masters in education, and I have no plans to home school my two children. I take great offense at you insinuating that I don't truly care about my children's education.

Talk about twisting words.  I do not believe the poster you are replying to was saying that at all.  In typycal public school administrator fashion, of course you take offense.  I take offense to your tone towards homeschoolers.  Your Masters in "Education" does not make you better qualified to teach MY children.  Today's Educational degrees are a joke in my opinion.

 

To all the parents out there whose kids are "doing great" in public school, you will one day wake up to the reality of grade inflation.  In my day, it was very rare that 80% of the class had  A's.  Today it happens all the time.  Hmmmm......education quality down, grades up.  Something doesn't smell right.  If I were you I would have your child independently tested to find out just "how great" they are doing.  If your public school child had less than stellar SAT scores or has to take remedial classes in college, then they didn't  "do great."  Colleges are actively seeking out homeschoolers these days because they are better disciplined and more organized as a whole.  They also have higher scores on SAT's and won't fill the remedial classes.  College administrators are fed up with the huge numbers of students that come to college unprepared, and not surprisingly, most of the students come from public schools.

 
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November 19, 2006, 10:40 am PST

A Glimpse Into an Unschooled Life

I'm going to tape this show, just to watch it, but I don't have any great hopes for any kind of objective look at either unschooling or homeschooling, just based on Dr. Phil's previous performances.

Reading through the posts so far on this message board, it's clear that most people are debating something that they have no experience with, have never seen or heard in action, and don't fully understand. Most people have never met an unschooler, let alone spent a day with them to see what their lives are really like, what their kids are like, and what they learn and how they learn it.

Unschooling is a very different approach than the school most of us grew up with. As such, it is perhaps difficult to truly understand, and also threatening in a way. Things that are different often feel threatening to those who don't have an opportunity to understand them. Even beliefs like a round earth or the earth revolving around the sun have historically met with strident opposition from those invested in their current belief systems.

I can't speak to every unschooling family, but I can tell you about my own. Our kids are ten and seven years old, they are active and engaged in real life every day. They learn from their real life experiences every day. They have no notion that learning is something dreadful, to be avoided (ever wonder why so many educational materials insist that "Learning Can Be Fun!"? Our kids have never known otherwise). Our kids often choose to do wildly "educational" things, because they find them fun. They have begged me to give them multiplication tables, asked to read _The Iliad_ and _Beowulf_ as bedtime stories, and last year both chose to learn Latin (mostly because of my son's interest in Roman history). They also often choose to do things that society would deem "uneducational" such as play imaginary games for hours on end, or have competitions on the Nintendo Gamecube, watch cartoons, or simply read a book for a whole afternoon. I believe that they are "learning all the time" as the great John Holt once said, and that they learn as much from things that society calls "uneducational" as they do from typically "educational" activities.

My son (10) has a very engineering-oriented brain and also is really absorbed with history (not to mention the typical 10 year old boy pursuits such as throwing around a baseball, reading Spiderman comics, and playing video games). He's currently on a Robotics Team, working toward a competition with other teams from around the state. As a part of that competition, the team is also doing a research project on Nanotechnology. He takes Karate, has a wide circle of friends that he sees in many different places (playdates as well as organized homeschooling activities with our local group). His other main interests are history, especially Roman and Greek history and mythology, and medieval history; and botany: he often propagates plants to sell at garage sales for income, and he has recently asked to find a mentor to teach him about grafting.

My daughter's (7) main interests are music, theatre, and dance, as well as animals. She has been playing the violin since age 3, focusing on Celtic fiddle music, and often performs in public (which earns her some income as well). She's currently (by choice) doing classes in modern dance, ballet, horseback riding, violin, gymnastics, ice skating, and is in a ballet production of Chronicles of Narnia, as well as being on her older brother's robotics team. She adores animals and spends a lot of time with our eight family animals, reading books about animals, watching movies and documentaries about animals, etc.

In addition to their own interests, our family has a lot of activities that we do together. A typical week sees us reading together, playing family games in the evenings, going swimming as a family, spending whole afternoons at the library, and we love to travel. In the summer, we do a lot of camping with other homeschooling families, as well as day trips to the beach or mountains. We all love being out in nature. We belong to several homeschool groups, from a small community of six close homeschooling families to larger groups that do field trips and activities.

I wish all the people who think unschooling is "educational neglect" could spend a day with my wonderful kids. They are so joyful in their day to day living, and they truly are engaged and learning all the time. My son recently took our state's mandatory standardized tests (homeschool kids here are required to take them every other year). When we did some practice tests so he could get comfortable, I was amazed at the things he knew and how he had learned them. He knew how to do averaging because our family had done a rootbeer taste-off and had averaged our scores for 6 different brands of rootbeers. Fractions he knew from all the times he helped me baking in the kitchen. He could calculate areas from the time he helped his dad plan and build our chicken coop. Really, learning follows from real life, it just does.

I know this has been long, but I hope (in addition to whatever can be gleaned from the show) it gives an insight into the wonderful world of an unschooling family. I know our family is blessed with the ability to unschool - the time and resources that allow me to stay home with the kids. I know everyone doesn't have these resources, and that not everyone wants this kind of education for their children. But for those of us who choose it, I am grateful for the freedom we have in our country that gives us the right to make this choice.

 
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November 19, 2006, 10:58 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: movillecowgirl

For the people who seem to think that homeschoolers are "behind" or "under-socialized", I was homeschooled pretty much my whole life.  I was active in a homeschool co-op which many NON-homeschoolers do not realize are in almost every city, took piano for 9+years, took horsemanship lessons (and showed!), took Tae Kwon Do, the list just goes ON AND ON.  Not only this, we went through an accredited school, where I graduated with a 3.87 GPA.

When I went to college, I did so well on my placement test that I tested out of math AND English, and at graduation, I was the top of my class (in my field).

Why was I homeschooled?  Because the public school could not keep up with me and did not want to "deal" with me due to my ADHD which caused me to be extremely bored.  Our public schools are NOT for everyone, and I know that I would not have gone as far as I did if I would have continued down the destructive public school path. 

Jessica

P.S.  Two of my younger sisters graduated public high school (this is one of the best public schools in NE Texas!) in all HONORS classes and could not tell you the difference between a noun and a verb nor could they do advanced math.  Yes, public schools at thier finest there!

P.S.  Two of my younger sisters graduated public high school (this is one of the best public schools in NE Texas!) in all HONORS classes and could not tell you the difference between a noun and a verb nor could they do advanced math.  Yes, public schools at thier finest there!

 

 

The above is a perfect example of grade inflation.  Some of my son's friends goto the local Public High School, and they are in "honors" classes as well.  These honors classes are a joke.  Before I pulled my son out of the school he was enrolled in the Pre-AP classes.  One of the classes didn't even have a textbook.  He had no homework nor any real classroom assignments.  The teacher "lectured" every day on topics like the prices of oil stocks and the evil of the death penalty.  This is what my tax dollars goto?  No thanks.

 
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November 19, 2006, 11:01 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: purplepenny

Jetta, many parents do not have a "I don't care" attitude about schooling. Many parents simply do not have a choice to home school or to private school.

We live in a country that offers FREE education to every child regardless of background. That is amazing and that is something never to be taken for granted. Parents who send their kids to public schools, even the ones you find bad are simply taking advantage of something that is simply amazing in this world. They may not have a choice to look into home schooling and private schools. Public school may be their only choice. And, if you look at the entire world you realize, it's a GREAT choice.
It is NOT a FREE education.  I pay extraordinary property taxes to fund the local publc schools that my children do not even atttend.  My mother and grandparents also pay outrageous property taxes, and they do not have children or grandchildren in the schools either.  Public Education is not FREE.
 

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November 19, 2006, 11:14 am PST

It is a choice each caretaker makes

I have read some of the messages and rather than attack each other, each has a beneficial point to make in some way.  I admire the young lady that addressed how she overcame the challenges that some may use as excuses.  In no way did I take that she was saying that she was superior to others.  Yes, we all admire her for her achievements and the way she approaches concerns in life.  She "steps" up to the plate. 

 

Whether we send our children to public schools, home school, or private school, as parents (or custodians) we are given the responsibility to help that child gain the proper social skills, and to stay in touch with, daily,  what our child knows/understands and the expectations for what they are to know by the end of that grade level so their next level will be easier.  Seek help from others, if your child does not understand it from you or the teacher, until you discover the best way for the child to "understand it.  We don't all learn the same way.   It makes it easier for the child to want to learn, when they know their parent(s), or significant other person in their life wants to be a part of their learning experience by showing an interest.  

 

If you have a child in your care, are you holding yourself accountable for making sure that the child receives the proper skills in reading, writing and arithmitic as well as proper social skills.....patience, kindness, and goodness towards others and gentleness and self control within themselves?  That is your responsibility as the caretaker.  Are you using those key words when the social skill are  not positive when they are with their friends in your presence.  Example:  You are not patient with your friend, you are being unkind when you said that to them.   You are lacking self-control when you hit.     Did you have them apologize for the lack of patience to that child?  Did you give them another way to handle it properly?     You can't learn in any environment when the social skills are not there.  

 

Home Schooling:  Gain insight on what is expected from the State level from those who teach homeschooling.  It is not something in our state (Virginia) that just happens.  There are guidelines and tests that are taken to insure that the students are progressing.  Again, accountability from the one "teaching" no matter who is the teacher.     

 

There are children that succeed in all categories and children that don't succeed in some way in all categories.    

 

 
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November 19, 2006, 11:19 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: dmom67

fredastare, what you, and others, must realize is, if we (homeschoolers) aren't great at a certain subject (ie: algebra), we find someone to help our child with that subject.  We can either find someone to tutor our child in that subject,  or there are co-ops available within the "homeschool world" where one parent, who excells in one subject, teaches a group of children that subject, and another parent, who excells in another subject, teaches a group of children in that other subject.   =o)

I didn't imply in my post that homeschooling ones child ISN'T a good thing.  I was stating that I feel the governments should implement a certain criteria that will best enhance a child's education.

 

I feel the lack of a specified curriculum, and how vague the testing seems should be addressed.  With specific regulations put into place.

 

I feel that there are many qualified parents and guardians that are homeschooling their children.  My point was that I find it amazing that ANYONE is considered qualified to home school. 

 

I do feel it's very disheartening for a teacher whom has spent tremendous amounts time, energy and money in receiving their degree..........to be considered on the same qualified level as an uneducated parent by the government.

 

Not all parents are uneducated, I feel that many are fully competent to homeschool. It simply bothers me that they have according to the government the same level of expertise as university educated educators.

 

If that's the case.  Why not do away with teachers even needing a degree to teach in the public school system?  Just let anyone teach in the public school system, and forgo any formal educational requirements.

 

Simply resource the Internet, etc, as many homeschooling parents do?

 

I have NO problem with homeschooling.  I have issues in that it's not regulated with national standards and that a parent does not need to qualify or be tested in any way in order to home-school.

 

I hope that this better explains my thinking on this issue.  Homeschool?  No problem.  Yet I feel it's important that the *teacher* be monitored in their capabilities to successfully educate is all.

 

Fredi

 

 

 

 

 
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November 19, 2006, 11:28 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: jettav

I think she might have meant that if a parent is gonna homeschool then  they will know that they can do it effectively for they care for thier kids education. I would think that if a parent couldn't do it effectively, they would have enough sense to know that and put them in a system that would be effective for thier child, but I agree that  ther are some who are not gonna get that or even know that they are not being effective.
Caring isn't enough. A person can care for eternity for their kids education, it doesn't mean they can do a good job. Education isn't about caring enough.

And that's the problem. If a parent isn't bright enough to teach their kids they might not be bright enough to recognize that.
 

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