Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
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Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 20, 2006, 10:36 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: unschools

Assume the very worst case scenario. You got to the point where you decided you wanted to be an english teacher but had not bothered with English skills. What then? Is the dream over? From watching unschooled kids and older self-directed learners what happens (with them at least) is they simply go out and get the skills they need. Then they pursue the dream. Would you have really looked at your lack of English and decided it was an insurmountable obstacle? I really doubt it.

It depends on the degree to which I was lacking the skills. If my parents let me get to adulthood without being able to so much as read a newspaper, I'd be pretty pissed with them. If I couldn't construct a sentence or communicate effectively because I preferred to chase butterflies, I would say my parents had failed to do their jobs as parents.

 

Now I realize that is most likely not the case with your children or other "unschooled" children, but if you are going to ask me how bad is the worse case scenario, I think the worst case scenario is rather frightening.

 
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November 20, 2006, 10:44 am PST

I know this is not directed at me but...

Quote From: syhndie

(My previous post (to which you were replying) was accidently sent under my husband's username.  I've got it straightened out now so that he can continue the thread as himself and me as myself.)

We do provide direction to our kids.  It is important to us that they learn basic math, are able to read at an adult level by the time they are adults, can write well enough to write, say, a business letter or resume, can speak correctly by middle class American standards andcan do so in front of a few people without much anxiety.  But to achieve these goals, our kids do not need to follow a structured curriculum. 

They love to play games.  At ages 4 and 6 they are learning addition, subtraction, and simple mulitplication from playing board games, games on the internet and just from asking mom and dad lots and lots of questions.  They are slowly getting the idea of fractions from cooking with me.  They love to have stories read to them and the six year old is gradually learning to read without formal instruction.  Sometimes they dictate stories to me and we make their own books they can illustrate themselves.  Sometimes my six year old writes the words herself (with spelling help from mom).  We have weekly informal classes with our "homeschool friends" where the kids get lots of opportunities for learning, including some "pre-readers' theater" experience.

Basically what I'm saying is that we pay attention to our kids.  We observe what excites them and what turns them away.  We gently offer them opportunities to learn the basics I have mentioned, as well as other topics.  As parents we also act as models to our kids, pursuing our own interests in programming, game design, gardening, various historical topics, nutrition, fairy tales, economics, etc.  We often talk to the kids about what we are interested in.  We are trying to keep the spark of curiosity alive in them.  We want them to see learning as fun and exciting.  Forcing them to sit down and drill multiplication facts for a set amount of time each day, for example, *might* help them memorize their times tables, but it also might teach them that math is tedious. 

And as for college entrance exams, I am not too worried.  If they spend the next 12 years immersed in learning I believe they will do well on any college entrance exam.  And it's not like we are going to let them run wild with no parental attention.  We, and every other unschooler we know, keep a close eye on what they are learning.  We can't help it, we're present for each little step along the way, and get just as excited as the kids about what they're learning.  We aren't going to say "Oh, she's ten and still can't write, no big deal."  More likely we will say "Hmmm. .  . she just doesn't like to write.  Maybe if she had a penpal she would get more practice with writing."  It's an ongoing, you might say organic, process of one interest building upon another.  They want to learn.  They haven't been taught that learning is boring.   As parents we use our experience to show them more ways to learn than they could see all on their own. 

HTH.




 I am glad you answered like this...you answered a lot of questions I had about unschooling. I hope all parents unschool like that. But, for me I choose traditional home schooling. I am comfortable with it, my kids are older, and I feel it's best for them at this time. If I was 100% sure I could do schooling that way ...I might have considered it.

I also add non-book things to classes so my child can better grasp what they are learning. If I see something on TV that goes along with that we are learning....we watch it. If I see a video, board, or computer game that will help in reading, math, english, or whatever...I get it too. Apples to Apples, Cranium, Spanish/French computer learning games, and more. They, like you kids, love to learn too; with and without books and tests.


 
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November 20, 2006, 10:46 am PST

wow i never knew that there was such a thing as unschooling,however i see a very good way for children to want to learn, wow that relly makes a differance

What is Unschooling?  

By Earl Stevens

"What we want to see is the child in pursuit of knowledge, not knowledge in pursuit of the child."

-- George Bernard Shaw

It is very satisfying for parents to see their children in pursuit of knowledge. It is natural and healthy for the children, and in the first few years of life, the pursuit goes on during every waking hour. Bur after a few short years, most kids go to school. The schools also want to see children in pursuit of knowledge, but the schools want them to pursue mainly the school's knowledge and devote twelve years of life to doing so.

In his acceptance speech for the New York City Teacher of the Year award, John Gatto said, "Schools were designed by Horace Mann. . .and others to be instruments of the scientific management of a mass population." In the interests of managing each generation of children, the public school curriculum has become a hopelessly flawed attempt to define education and to find a way of delivering that definition to vast numbers of children.

The traditional curriculum is based on the assumption that children must be pursued by knowledge because they will never pursue it themselves. It was no doubt noticed that, when given a choice, most children prefer not to do school work. Since, in a school, knowledge is defined as schoolwork, it is easy for educators to conclude that children don't like to acquire knowledge. Thus schooling came to be a method of controlling children and forcing them to do whatever educators decided was beneficial for them. Most children don't like textbooks, workbooks, quizzes, rote memorization, subject schedules, and lengthy periods of physical inactivity. One can discover this - even with polite and cooperative children - by asking them if they would like to add more time to their daily schedule. I feel certain that most will decline the offer.

The work of a schoolteacher is not the same as that of a homeschooling parent. In most schools, a teacher is hired to deliver a ready-made, standardized, year-long curriculum to 25 or more age-segregated children who are confined in a building all day. The teacher must use a standard curriculum - not because it is the best approach for encouraging an individual child to learn the things that need to be known - but because it is a convenient way to handle and track large numbers of children. The school curriculum is understandable only in the context of bringing administrative order out of daily chaos, of giving direction to frustrated children and unpredictable teachers. It is a system that staggers ever onward but never upward, and every morning we read about the results in our newspapers.

But despite the differences between the school environment and the home, many parents begin homeschooling under the impression that homeschooling can be pursued only by following some variation of the traditional public school curriculum in the home. Preoccupied with the idea of "equivalent education", state and local education officials assume that we must share their educational goals and that we homeschool simply because we don't want our children to be inside their buildings. Textbook and curriculum publishing companies go to great lengths to assure us that we must buy their products if we expect our children to be properly educated. As if this were not enough, there are national, state, and local support organizations that have practically adopted the use of the traditional curriculum and the school-in-the-home image of homeschooling as a de facto membership requirement. In the midst of all this, it can be difficult for a new homeschooling family to think that an alternative approach is possible.

One alternative approach is "unschooling", also known as "natural learning", "experienced-based learning", or "independent learning". Several weeks ago, when our homeschooling support group announced a gathering to discuss unschooling, we thought a dozen or so people might attend, but more than 100 adults and children showed up. For three hours parents and some of the children took turns talking about their homeschooling experiences and about unschooling. Many people said afterward that they left the meeting feeling reinforced and exhilarated - not because anybody told them what to do or gave them a magic formula - but because they grew more secure in making these decisions for themselves. Sharing ideas about this topic left them feeling empowered.

Before I talk about what I think unschooling is, I must talk about what it isn't. Unschooling isn't a recipe, and therefore it can't be explained in recipe terms. It is impossible to give unschooling directions for people to follow so that it can be tried for a week or so to see if it works. Unschooling isn't a method, it is a way of looking at children and at life. It is based on trust that parents and children will find the paths that work best for them - without depending on educational institutions, publishing companies, or experts to tell them what to do.

Unschooling does not mean that parents can never teach anything to their children, or that children should learn about life entirely on their own without the help and guidance of their parents. Unschooling does not mean that parents give up active participation in the education and development of their children and simply hope that something good will happen. Finally, since many unschooling families have definite plans for college, unschooling does not even mean that children will never take a course in any kind of a school.

Then what is unschooling? I can't speak for every person who uses the term, but I can talk about my own experiences. Our son has never had an academic lesson, has never been told to read or to learn mathematics, science, or history. Nobody has told him about phonics. He has never taken a test or has been asked to study or memorize anything. When people ask, "What do you do?" My answer is that we follow our interests - and our interests inevitably lead to science, literature, history, mathematics, music - all the things that have interested people before anybody thought of them as "subjects".

A large component of unschooling is grounded in doing real things, not because we hope they will be good for us, but because they are intrinsically fascinating. There is an energy that comes from this that you can't buy with a curriculum. Children do real things all day long, and in a trusting and supportive home environment, "doing real things" invariably brings about healthy mental development and valuable knowledge. It is natural for children to read, write, play with numbers, learn about society, find out about the past, think, wonder and do all those things that society so unsuccessfully attempts to force upon them in the context of schooling.

While few of us get out of bed in the morning in the mood for a "learning experience", I hope that all of us get up feeling in the mood for life. Children always do so - unless they are ill or life has been made overly stressful or confusing for them. Sometimes the problem for the parent is that it can be difficult to determine if anything important is actually going on. It is a little like watching a garden grow. No matter how closely we examine the garden, it is difficult to verify that anything is happening at that particular moment. But as the season progresses, we can see that much has happened, quietly and naturally. Children pursue life, and in doing so, pursue knowledge. They need adults to trust in the inevitability of this very natural process, and to offer what assistance they can.

Parents come to our unschooling discussions with many questions about fulfilling state requirements. They ask: "How do unschoolers explain themselves to the state when they fill out the paperwork every year?", "If you don't use a curriculum, what do you say?" and "What about required record-keeping?" To my knowledge, unschoolers have had no problems with our state department of education over matters of this kind. This is a time when even many public school educators are moving away from the traditional curriculum, and are seeking alternatives to fragmented learning and drudgery.

When I fill out the paperwork required for homeschooling in our state, I briefly describe, in the space provided, what we are currently doing, and the general intent of what we plan to do for the coming year. I don't include long lists of books or describe any of the step-by-step skills associated with a curriculum. For example, under English/Language Arts, I mentioned that our son’s favorite "subject" is the English language. I said a few words about our family library. I mentioned that our son reads a great deal and uses our computer for whatever writing he happens to do. I concluded that, "Since he already does so well on his own, we have decided not to introduce language skills as a subject to be studied. It seems to make more sense for us to leave him to his own continuing success."

Homeschooling is a unique opportunity for each family to do whatever makes sense for the growth and development of their children. If we have a reason for using a curriculum and traditional school materials, we are free to use them. They are not a universally necessary or required component of our homeschooling programs, either educational or legally.

Allowing curriculums, textbooks, and tests to be the defining, driving force behind the education of a child is a hindrance in the home as much as in the school - not only because it interferes with learning, but because it interferes with trust. As I have mentioned, even educators are beginning to question the pre-planned, year-long curriculum as an out-dated, 19th century educational system. There is no reason that families should be less flexible and innovative than schools.

Anne Sullivan, Helen Keller's mentor and friend, said:

I am beginning to suspect all elaborate and special systems of education. They seem to me to be built upon the supposition that every child is a kind of idiot who must be taught to think. Whereas if the child is left to himself, he will think more and better, if less "showily". Let him come and go freely, let him touch real things and combine his impressions for himself... Teaching fills the mind with artificial associations that must be got rid of before the child can develop independent ideas out of actual experiences.

Homeschooling provides a unique opportunity to step away from systems and methods, and to develop independent ideas out of actual experiences, where the child is truly in pursuit of knowledge, not the other way around.

Copyright 1994, Earl Stevens

This article appeared in "At Home In New England," (#28) revised and reprinted with permission of the author.

 

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November 20, 2006, 10:51 am PST

Homeschool Mom

I started homeschooling by boys last year.  The violence in schools is out of hand and parents in general aren't making children responsible for their actions.  Socialization is usually the argument I hear from people against homeschooling.  My point is the socialization children get in public schools is damaging.  Children are getting away with things that in adulthood are considered criminal or inappropriate.  You can't take a knife to work.  You can't beat up a boss that looked at you funny, or stole your boyfriend/girlfriend.  You can't walk up to a co-worker and cuss him/her out.  You can't show up for a job interview in a pair of low-rise pants and a tank top.  We leave the socialization of our children to other children.  Teachers cannot teach and "parent" our children.  My oldest son went from below grade level classes to testing and excelling in classes four years above his grade level.  This was accomplished in one year.  Our other son has learning disabilities and his charter school created a program to fit him that has marked the first real progress for him in his school career.  This isn't for everyone.  Homeschooling is ALOT of work.  We go in for a math and a language class once a week.  We participate in state testing like any other school.  The children get together with children their age for activities, field trips, etc.  I have a great respect for the teaching profession but the system as it is now doesn't work.  Students are out of control.  First and foremost there has to be a safe enviornment to foster learning.  I don't think we are doing any favors to our children by allowing them to socialize one another.  It is the job of parents to teach our children right and wrong and prepare them for life in the world.  My children are learning that school is their job.  They are children and should fight for their childhood.  They participate in scouts, play with friends, skateboard, go to the park, and have fun with family.  I am working to give them a well rounded life and make sure their education is complete and exceptional.  This isn't for everyone but it has been a lifesaver for my family. 
 
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November 20, 2006, 11:16 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: cmkennedy124

I too want to make sure my kids get into college. I, as a home schooler, felt we should call all colleges in the area to find out what they wanted on a transcript when my child was in 8th grade. My oldest wants to get into Chemistry so, we not only tailored her educational high school plan around college; we added an advanced Chemistry class to her 12th grade class schedule. One of the college admissions advisors even told me when my child should take the PSAT, SAT, and ACT; we plan to take all three.

The bottom line is, I want the best for my kid.....it's MY responsibility to make she they get the best education so they can be whatever they want (college or no college). I just can't, even as a traditional home schooler, grasp how to do that by unschooling them. Even the word means to "not school"...I am sorry....I just don't understand.  


 

Here is what I did find when searching for unschooling: 


 

Unschooling contrasts with homeschooling in that the student's education is not directed by a teacher and curriculum. Although an unschooling student may choose to make use of teachers or curricula, s/he is ultimately in control of his/her own education. The student chooses how, when, why, and what s/he learns. Parents who unschool their children act as "facilitators" and provide a wide range of resources, instruction and support. Unschooling begins with a child's natural curiosity and expands from there, as an extension of his/her own personal interests and needs.  


 

I just hope this means that the parents also provide some educational guidance when the child is steering themselves off track. I feel most kids need a ton educational guidance it at any age.  

(I know you just showed us what you found, so this isn't directed at you, it's just a comment in general)

"Unschooling begins with a child's natural curiosity and expands from there, as an extension of his/her own personal interests and needs."

What parent DOESN'T do that regardless of whatever education path they choose for their kids? I was in public school. Mediocre public schools. My parents were not home schoolers (except for one year for my little brother) my parents were not "unschoolers"...they were just normal parents, like I AM, who enjoy showing the world to their child.

This is NOT unique to "unschool" parents.  I was encouraged to learn on my own, explore on my own, ask questions and embrace my natural human curiosity.  I think this is simply what good parents do. I do this. My daughter is only 2 and a half but I certainly teach her everyday.

But there are somethings that every child simply needs in order to live in our society. They aren't naturally going to learn everything. Some things must be taught with real effort regardless if the child wants to learn it or not.
 
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November 20, 2006, 11:22 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: syhndie

(My previous post (to which you were replying) was accidently sent under my husband's username.  I've got it straightened out now so that he can continue the thread as himself and me as myself.)

We do provide direction to our kids.  It is important to us that they learn basic math, are able to read at an adult level by the time they are adults, can write well enough to write, say, a business letter or resume, can speak correctly by middle class American standards andcan do so in front of a few people without much anxiety.  But to achieve these goals, our kids do not need to follow a structured curriculum. 

They love to play games.  At ages 4 and 6 they are learning addition, subtraction, and simple mulitplication from playing board games, games on the internet and just from asking mom and dad lots and lots of questions.  They are slowly getting the idea of fractions from cooking with me.  They love to have stories read to them and the six year old is gradually learning to read without formal instruction.  Sometimes they dictate stories to me and we make their own books they can illustrate themselves.  Sometimes my six year old writes the words herself (with spelling help from mom).  We have weekly informal classes with our "homeschool friends" where the kids get lots of opportunities for learning, including some "pre-readers' theater" experience.

Basically what I'm saying is that we pay attention to our kids.  We observe what excites them and what turns them away.  We gently offer them opportunities to learn the basics I have mentioned, as well as other topics.  As parents we also act as models to our kids, pursuing our own interests in programming, game design, gardening, various historical topics, nutrition, fairy tales, economics, etc.  We often talk to the kids about what we are interested in.  We are trying to keep the spark of curiosity alive in them.  We want them to see learning as fun and exciting.  Forcing them to sit down and drill multiplication facts for a set amount of time each day, for example, *might* help them memorize their times tables, but it also might teach them that math is tedious. 

And as for college entrance exams, I am not too worried.  If they spend the next 12 years immersed in learning I believe they will do well on any college entrance exam.  And it's not like we are going to let them run wild with no parental attention.  We, and every other unschooler we know, keep a close eye on what they are learning.  We can't help it, we're present for each little step along the way, and get just as excited as the kids about what they're learning.  We aren't going to say "Oh, she's ten and still can't write, no big deal."  More likely we will say "Hmmm. .  . she just doesn't like to write.  Maybe if she had a penpal she would get more practice with writing."  It's an ongoing, you might say organic, process of one interest building upon another.  They want to learn.  They haven't been taught that learning is boring.   As parents we use our experience to show them more ways to learn than they could see all on their own. 

HTH.




You seem like one of the rational posters, so I am going to pick at you a bit if you don't mind. This part has been swarming in my head...

 

We aren't going to say "Oh, she's ten and still can't write, no big deal."  More likely we will say "Hmmm. .  . she just doesn't like to write.  Maybe if she had a penpal she would get more practice with writing." 

 

Okay, I get the rationale behind this, but I have to wonder, what if the penpal thing doesn't work. What if no matter what you expose her to or what direction you nudge her, she still does not like writing. Is that it then? Do you simply agree that she NEVER has to write. Is there an age where you decide, okay, she NEEDS better writing skills.

 

As a former English teacher, I am little unnerved by a ten year old not being able to write. I have a hard time imagining anyone being happy and self-sufficient without the ability to communicate effectively in writing. What if she HATED reading?

 

I know people who fell through the cracks at school. Now they are adults struggling to make it and rather angry at their parents and/or their schools for not forcing them to learn. I hate using the word FORCED, but you get what I mean.

 
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November 20, 2006, 11:22 am PST

Ditto

Quote From: rtempesta

I do not think that home schooling is for everyone nor do I believe that public schooling is either.  I think parents have a responsibility to do what will best benefit their child.  I have one child in public school and one that I home school.  While one does extremely well in the public school, the other does not.  I don't think it's fair to put all people in one box and say that is what's best for one is best for all.  It doesn't work that way anywhere else in the 'real' world. 

 

For those who have ailments - do they all take the same medication?  No, it depends on what ails them!  Does everyone take something for an ailment??  Not if they don't have an ailment!  Not everyone has the same learning style, abilities or disabilities.  You can't put all people in one room and teach them all the same way and expect them ALL to 'get it'.  Put all those alike (same learning styles, abilities and interests) in one room and teach them and they'll comprehend.  I'd like to see THAT happen in the public school system! 

 

And some parents don't have a choice but to send their child(ren) to public school.

 

I don't think anyone can tell anyone else what's best for the other's child and it be taken seriously.  This debate will never be resolved until we learn to accept each other's differences and accept that not everyone fits the same mold.

 
 
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November 20, 2006, 11:38 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: julie1418

You seem like one of the rational posters, so I am going to pick at you a bit if you don't mind. This part has been swarming in my head...

 

We aren't going to say "Oh, she's ten and still can't write, no big deal."  More likely we will say "Hmmm. .  . she just doesn't like to write.  Maybe if she had a penpal she would get more practice with writing." 

 

Okay, I get the rationale behind this, but I have to wonder, what if the penpal thing doesn't work. What if no matter what you expose her to or what direction you nudge her, she still does not like writing. Is that it then? Do you simply agree that she NEVER has to write. Is there an age where you decide, okay, she NEEDS better writing skills.

 

As a former English teacher, I am little unnerved by a ten year old not being able to write. I have a hard time imagining anyone being happy and self-sufficient without the ability to communicate effectively in writing. What if she HATED reading?

 

I know people who fell through the cracks at school. Now they are adults struggling to make it and rather angry at their parents and/or their schools for not forcing them to learn. I hate using the word FORCED, but you get what I mean.

Children are children for a reason. We force them to do lots of things. Eat veggies, get shots, go to bed.

Why is learning suddenly different? Should we encourage kids where the shine? YES!!! Always!

But I don't hate using the word forced. LOL I force my daughter, Emma, to do LOTS of things she dislikes. She's a kid and she doesn't know what is best for her. I'm her mother, I do know better than she does what is best for her.
 
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November 20, 2006, 11:40 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: purplepenny

(I know you just showed us what you found, so this isn't directed at you, it's just a comment in general)

"Unschooling begins with a child's natural curiosity and expands from there, as an extension of his/her own personal interests and needs."

What parent DOESN'T do that regardless of whatever education path they choose for their kids? I was in public school. Mediocre public schools. My parents were not home schoolers (except for one year for my little brother) my parents were not "unschoolers"...they were just normal parents, like I AM, who enjoy showing the world to their child.

This is NOT unique to "unschool" parents.  I was encouraged to learn on my own, explore on my own, ask questions and embrace my natural human curiosity.  I think this is simply what good parents do. I do this. My daughter is only 2 and a half but I certainly teach her everyday.

But there are somethings that every child simply needs in order to live in our society. They aren't naturally going to learn everything. Some things must be taught with real effort regardless if the child wants to learn it or not.
OK, that's exactly right.  That is unschooling, and it's also what parents (of public school students) are expected to do for their children outside school.  Unschooling is simply that, facilitating their knowledge outside of the school environment.

Sometimes it may indeed involve getting a textbook.  If little Johnny says to me, "Mom, I want to know everything there is to know about the radius and ulna." I'd help point him to text book, websites, show him where his own radius and ulna are on his body.  And yeah, that may involve getting a textbook and saying, "Look, here's a book which tells you more than I could possibly tell you.  Why don't you read it if you like, and tell me things you think I may not know"...

It's very interactive learning.  And yes, it can fall into the realm of unschooling even if a textbook was involved.  It's similar to a parent helping a public schooled kid with their homework, only they get to choose the subjects.

 
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November 20, 2006, 11:49 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: rtempesta

I do not think that home schooling is for everyone nor do I believe that public schooling is either.  I think parents have a responsibility to do what will best benefit their child.  I have one child in public school and one that I home school.  While one does extremely well in the public school, the other does not.  I don't think it's fair to put all people in one box and say that is what's best for one is best for all.  It doesn't work that way anywhere else in the 'real' world. 

 

For those who have ailments - do they all take the same medication?  No, it depends on what ails them!  Does everyone take something for an ailment??  Not if they don't have an ailment!  Not everyone has the same learning style, abilities or disabilities.  You can't put all people in one room and teach them all the same way and expect them ALL to 'get it'.  Put all those alike (same learning styles, abilities and interests) in one room and teach them and they'll comprehend.  I'd like to see THAT happen in the public school system! 

 

And some parents don't have a choice but to send their child(ren) to public school.

 

I don't think anyone can tell anyone else what's best for the other's child and it be taken seriously.  This debate will never be resolved until we learn to accept each other's differences and accept that not everyone fits the same mold.

"This debate will never be resolved until we learn to accept each other's differences and accept that not everyone fits the same mold."

No one has said that all kids come from the same mold.

All anyone has said from what I can see, is that not all parents are qualified to teach children in this society.

Giving birth to a kid does not make you smart enough to teach them.
 
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