Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 21, 2006, 5:33 am PST

einstein

Quote From: fredastare

All these presidents were unschooled and voted into office.

 

 

Okay you listed a bunch of Presidents that were in office during an era where public schooling wasn't even an option for some of these men.  Particularly those whom hailed from the south.

 

One must realise that the school system was largely private and unregulated until the mid 1800's.

 

Yet your list in not completely accurate.

 

George Washington hailed from Virginia, and lived his life in the 1700's.  This time in history saw both the Colonial Era.....and the Revolutionary Era.  My understanding that the south had very few schools available until the beginning of the Revolutionary Era which began in 1763.

 

Thomas Jefferson  Did indeed go to a local school where he received what is considered a classical education.

 

John Quincy Adams  You may be correct about him........as he travelled extensively with his father overseas.

 

James Maddison  Again you may be correct.........yet let us not forget that public schooling wasn't necessarily available during this era.

 

William Henry Harrison is believed to have entered a public school at a young age once a school house was built within his community.

 

John Tyler  I don't know about, I think he did attend College.........but have no information about his early education.

 

Abraham Lincoln  Well we all know that he was born in Kentucky and was raised in a log cabin.  He hailed from the south like I stated during an era where a public school was likely not an option for him.  He was a voracious self educator, mastering literary works such as Shakespeare, the Bible.........and all things involving history.

 

Woodrow Wilson  Was homeschooled by his father.  It's believed that Wilson suffered from dyslexia or ADD.  Yet he DID attend classes at a small school in Augusta.

 

The Roosevelts' ;  They were indeed schooled.  F.D.R.  Attended a private Episcopalian boarding school.  Teddy  was HOMESCHOOLED by private tutors and his parents, which btw was a common practise back then.

 

Unschooling wasn't even a term or method until John Holt came along and began this movement during the 1960's and 70's.

 

So to use these past Presidents as an example of unschooled politicians is moot. 

 

Unschooling didn't even exist.  If a few of these men where unschooled, I feel it's because of lack of public educational institutions during that era.  Not despite of those institutions.

 

 

 

Fredi

 

 

yeah, but unschooling can take place IN SPITE OF being schooled.

 

albert einstein was schooled, but he also unschooled himself........from the time he was 10 he started reading everything he could to teach himself.  he tried to get out of going to school.  all of his substantial learning was of an autodidactic nature.

 
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November 21, 2006, 5:47 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: fredastare

After reading these posts over the past couple of days, this is my take on the situation.

 

Those who choose to homeschool and those who choose to unschool are for the most part simply being combative and defencive in their positions in this forum.  I am grateful for those who have taken the time to explain their motives and their efforts that are driving them in these choices.

 

Thank you all posters that weren't combative, and level headed enough to explain you methods.  It's much appreciated by myself.

 

Really, I find that no one here has said you are doing your child wrong. Rather I'm simply asking questions and pondering the possibilities regarding that there are no stringent nation wide accepted standards, nor measurement of progress in our societies CHILDREN!  That is were my personal problem truly lies.

 

I am fortunate to have quite an extensive education, yet I do not consider myself qualified, nor objective enough to have even begin to homeschool my children.

 

AM I SAYING THAT NO ONE CAN DO THIS? 

 

Absolutely NOT!

 

Yet I will repeatedly state that ALL schooling must be subject to close monitoring and scrutiny of implemented standards set by the National Govt. 

 

For without standards, how can one truly understand their progressive potential?

 

 

 

 

Fredi

 

 

 

 

 

Yet I will repeatedly state that ALL schooling must be subject to close monitoring and scrutiny of implemented standards set by the National Govt. 

 

For without standards, how can one truly understand their progressive potential?

 

I don't like the idea of national government monitoring at all.

 

1. The national government makes silly laws which aren't working for the public schools. Why inflict them on homeschools?

2. Homeschools in most states are considered private schools. Private schools are excluded from government intervention.

3. The government does not know what is best for my child. 

 

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled yesterday against parents who sued their local school district after their elementary-age children were given a sexually charged survey, saying there is "no fundamental right of parents to be the exclusive provider of information regarding sexual matters to their children."

The three-judge panel of the full court further ruled that parents "have no due process or privacy right to override the determinations of public schools as to the information to which their children will be exposed while enrolled as students."

 

We agree [with the previous ruling], and hold that there is no fundamental right of parents to be the exclusive provider of information regarding sexual matters to their children, either independent of their right to direct the upbringing and education of their children or encompassed by it. We also hold that parents have no due process or privacy right to override the determinations of public schools as to the information to which their children will be exposed while enrolled as students.

 

What if the government began monitoring all parental activity for the "best interests of the child" would you agree? By this I mean, if the foster care system decided to implement rules and regulations and expecting you to not only follow these regulations but expected you to report your results. Keep in mind that if the foster care system is not completely pleased they will attempt to remove your children from your family home and insert them into the foster care system for the "good of the child".

Oh sure, we would have some parents who more than likely could use some serious parenting help. But, does that give the government the right to rule over all families to search out the bad apples?

 
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November 21, 2006, 5:54 am PST

parents do deside, its not the governments job

This discussion of homeschooling or not to homeschool (or unschool, there are many titles) has within itself a wide range of topics and styles of schooling, for which there is not enough room or time to address.  Parents do have a legal right to decide for themselves what education best suites their family's lifestyle and children's needs.  Granted, not all parents are best suited to this area, but you still don't take away the rights of the others.  Just because some doctors are not suited to be doctors doesn't mean you take away the right of others to decide that's what they want to study and become.  Unfortunately, our society has to live with the less than desirable decisions other members of our society make.  This is in all areas: drugs, guns, job competancies, child raising, religious and political views, and the list could go on.

 

The point is that if a parent carefully researches all the areas of different schooling, and if the husband and wife are in agreement about the schooling, and the parents -one or more- attend a homeschool support group, there is not as much reason to expect these parents to do a poor job of educating their child. 

 

There will always be exceptions, I have heard of a very few in my area.  Parents whose children get kicked out of school or are in trouble at school, so the parent pulls the child, throws some books at him or her, and then ignores the child.  Trouble here whether the child stays in school or not.

 

Both my husband and I have a little college but are also registered technologists in our field.  I am still homeschooling my daughter, who just tested at 27 on her ACT, has a job in gymnastics, is on a gymnastics team, has played softball for 11+ years, and is taking college classes and performing with the college chamber choir.  She is doing well enough in her studies, although I wish she wouldn't have become quite so busy.  We can adjust her schedule to meet all these demands and interests.  The public school cannot  and will not.  They couldn't possibly. 

 

My first born son fell through the cracks of the school system.  He started off as an A -B student in elementary, but as he became more "socialized" schooling became less important and friends more so.  His grades slid. In Jr. high and middle school he barely had C's in most classes, and in high school was almost an F student.  Hated his classes, his teachers, the dog-eat-dog, bigger meaner kids, the rich preps, and so on.  Teachers handed out attention and better grades to students who gave them backrubs, etc.  Now some of this was his fault. 

 

But one thing I have noticed is that when a child is around children all day (and I include highschoolers) there is MORE of a tendancy for the child to imitate or emulate the thinking and behavior of his/her peers.  There is much less influence of the parent on the thinking or behavior of the child.  This is ONE of the several reasons why I chose to homeschool not just my daughter but also my youngest son.

 

My youngest was having problems in elementary school.  He was suspended as a 1st grader for doing a foolish and immature thing.  The first grade teacher wouldn't do the things that the kindergarden teacher did that made working with my youngest much easier.  He wasn't mean or rude or disrespectful, but he couldn't sit still and be silent for long periods,  and other nuisance problems.  So I took him out of school, tried homeschooling just two subjects over the summer to see how he and his sister would handle it, and how I could handle it.  It succeeded well enough.

 

That is when I discovered in the next year of tutoring him that he had ADHD.  He still had a great many problems even with medication.  But he was done with his school work in 4 hours, and had a lot of play time.  He really enjoyed schooling in some areas because we'd do experiments, make going to the dentiest and eye doctor a field trip with learning, and do hands-on building projects for history.  However as he got older he got angrier and harder to teach.  He needed a more varied invironment with different activities going on.  So I got him enfolled in a school of the arts, where after just two weeks he wanted a violin.  He went from knowing nothing of violin in January of his 5th grade year, to being 1st chair in his school's symphony, and on the city's youth symphony with in 1 year. 

 

You may think this is a succes for a public school however bear this in mind.  He was just slightly ahead of his peers in math when he started the school of the arts.  In homeschool, I had to work with him on math and hold him strictly accountable for his school work, and math corrections which I tried to oversee each day.  Those days when he did not understand a math concept after several tries I would switch to some different math concepts for a month or so, then go back to the trouble spot.  Usually with a little work he would then pick up the concept and we'd forge onward. 

 

However, by the time he was in 8th grade in the school of the arts, he was defending his friends from the teachers and being rude to teachers, more interested in goofing off with his friends, his grades were mostly C's with maybe an A or two and certainly some near F's in the core curriculum.  After a major serious talk with him and threatening him with homeschooling instead of high school with his friends, he straigtened up enough to get mostly all B's and an A or two.  However the damage was still done.  He missed most of the salient points in Algebra.  He never brought home work so I had no idea how he was doing, and he wouldn't talk to me about much of anything unless there was something he wanted from me.

 

Now he is in public high school, and while his grades are ok for the most part, he is still flunking algebra, and is more concerned with hiding from us, or staying at his friend's houses.  I am concidering taking him back into homeschooling so I would know what he is doing.  I know he is smart enough to handle algebra but he has do it at his pace, and also be held accountable, and the public school can't do that. 

 

Although it would strip us bare financially there are many things I could do to address his fields of interest that the public school cannot.  But because he is at school all day, he refuses to do more when he comes home. 

 

Kids at school all day, don't want to do more school with mom and dad when they get home.  They don't want to talk to mom and dad when they get home.  They only want to do things with their peers, and think like their peers, and behave like their peers.  I have certainly seen this in my daughter's friends who go to public school.  Believe it or not the public school parents trust my daughter with their daughters when the girls go out.

 

So, public schools aren't the sole and final answer for every parent, but you have really got to know what you're getting into when you decide to unschool.  And once you decide to unschool, you really have to make a committment to it. 

 
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November 21, 2006, 5:54 am PST

can't we all just get along:::::::::cheeky::::::::::

this looks to me like yet another chapter in the very long book of the "mommy wars."

 

it's right up there with the endless debates on which is better, being a stay-at-home mom or a working mom (as if sahms weren't "working")

 

or the breastfeeding vs. bottlefeeding debates.

 

these are issues where the people on each side feel so strongly about their opinions that the heated debate goes on endlessly with neither side really listening to the other.

 

and that's okay.

 

we don't have to change each other's minds.

 

i don't think the objective should be trying to figure out who is "right" or "wrong".....because there is no such thing.

 

unschoolers are not trying to convert homeschoolers or schoolers into unschoolers.  we're trying to make ourselves heard.

 

but what i feel is that for the most part i really just don't care what anyone thinks of how i'm raising my kids.  i am not going to sit around wasting my time trying to make anyone see things from my perspective.........what is the point?

 

i'd rather spend my time actively engaged in life...with my kids!!!!

 

i'm just really curious as to why so many people who love their kids and have chosen to use the school system care so much about how other parents who love their kids choose to raise them.

 

we all obviously love our kids...we do what we believe is best.  and that's going to be different for every single family...even within the unschooling community, families aren't all exactly alike.

 

it is snowing right now...in charleston, sc...and my boys are up and so excited to see it (we used to live in tenn. and they miss the snow).  i wouldn't miss this moment for the world...they are right here next to me jumping up and down...and getting out the camera and just being in the moment.  what sort of learning will take place today because of this moment.  will they look up stuff about snow on the computer.  will we make snowflakes together.  will we decide that it's time to put up the christmas tree.  right now they are making up their very own snow song.

 

this moment could not happen if they were in school right now.  it just wouldn't be possible.  sure the excitement would still be there....but would they be allowed to show it like they are right now?  and then explore it!!

 

well, i've got to go enjoy the moment with them...

 

i suggest you all do the same...go enjoy your kids...whether they are in school or not.  whether they are homeschooled or unschooled.  it's YOUR life....go live it and stop worrying about what everyone else is doing!!

 
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November 21, 2006, 6:26 am PST

A note about defensiveness

Quote From: purplepenny

Well..I don't have any such information because I never once said there was...ALL I said was that I have seen some horrid failures of home schooling with my own eyes.

Go ahead...find me any post I made where I make a general attack saying that home school is full of failures.

Go on...I'll wait...

This defensiveness is now a runaway train that is just making assumptions as it speeds along.


Hon, I did not say you personally made attacks about homeschooling. I said there have been many attacks on homeschooling on this board.

 

I would like to comment on the defensiveness of homeschooles. Homeschooling is not accepted by main stream media. (Dr. Phil's show will be evidence of that fact.) In turn, homeschooling is not accepted by the masses. Many simply believe the media hype and some simply do not have enough information concerning the subject to form an educated opinion.

 

Homeschoolers have to be on the defensive, unfortunately. I have hired a legal team to defend my right to homeschool and I am not the only one. More than 80,000 homeschool families are members of HSLDA, Home School Legal Defense Association.

 

Even the Director of Pupil Personnel (DPP) in my local county attacks homeschool rights. As a homeschooler in the state of Kentucky I am required to:

1. Provide approximately 990 instructional hours.

2. Teach Reading, writing, spelling, grammar, history, mathematics, and civics
3. Notify the local board of education of those students in attendance within two weeks of start of school year. The letter of intent to homeschool must include: names, ages, and places of residence of all pupils.
4. Maintain an attendance register and scholarship reports.

 

Immediately after filing my letter of intent to homeschool I received a letter from the DPP informing me that my letter was incomplete. He sent an obviously altered copy of the state requirements which included:

1. Date of birth of the children.

2. Date homeschool instruction will begin.

3. Student's social security numbers.

4. Current home phone number.

 

These requirements are not legally required. I had to contact my lawyer to deal with the situation. In fact, the county's request for homeschooled students' social security numbers violates federal privacy law! Why would the DPP be interested in my children's dates of birth and social security numbers you may ask? Funding. He was trying to get funding for his public school. This DPP had no intentions of ensuring a quality eduation for my children, he wanted more funding.

 

Unfortunately, this situation is not rare. As a result homeschoolers do have to be a bit defensive. But, in the end,aren't we all? I could very easily use your response as a sign of defensiveness too.

 

 
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November 21, 2006, 6:32 am PST

no reason to blame/ attack

I  don't know why everybody is attacking or blaming the other party. If you send your kids to public or private school, good for you. If you homeschool, good for you too. Some parents don't have the patience to homeschool and think they will do a diservice to teach their own kids. Some parents think they can do better if they teach their kids. There is no wrong doing in either way.

I started homeschooling my 6 year old this year. It has been a rollercoaster with her but we are just now managing. She thought "staying at home" meant she could play all day. My thoughts were that she could learn more than she would do in school. It was not my idea of homeschooling but hers. When in kindrgarten she did not like to go and cried every day.  I was the Room Mother and stayed there almost all day and understood why she did not like it. She is very respectful and polite and listen to the teacher; she does not like to get in trouble. Almost all the kids in her class were a mess and the teacher had to yell just to be heard. With me, she does not get an organized class but this is my first year and I am getting better and I have the drive for her to learn more. She is doing more than the kids at school and still has time to do extra curricular activities such as gymnastics and taekwondo. She is very well adusted at 6 years old and does very well socially too. She goes anywhere and says "please', "thank you", "yes, sir/mam" and 'excuse me". She is a beautiful lady and I am so proud of my daughter. 

 

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November 21, 2006, 6:35 am PST

homeschooling - our reasons

We have been homeschooling for ten years.  Each year brings confirmation that, for our family, we have made the right decision.  Our first and foremost reason for homeschooling is our family's belief in God.  Public school curriculum does not uphold our beliefs and in fact undermines them.  The curriculum we use glorifies God and reinforces what we believe to our children.

We believe education is very important in our family.  We want our children to have the best education.  Here at home we can specialize each child's program to their learning styles and needs.  I have a gifted child and I have a child with special needs.  The public school would have a hard time meeting either child's educational needs, especially where we live. 

I have seen children grow up in unschooling environments who have done extremely well.  That is not the method we have chosen for our family.  I don't believe that the unschooling method is okay for every child.  I do believe that "school" too structured inhibits the joy of learning and exploration.  Parents need to decide for themselves what they believe as a family, what their goals are for their children and how best to achieve those goals.  There is no one right way to do that.  Each child is a unique and beautiful person created by God.  It takes wisdom to know how to raise children to achieve the best of their potential. 

 
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November 21, 2006, 6:51 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Attachparent wrote:
"C
ome on people our society is successful because of community colleges and advance specialized education. The Univerisy of Phoenix has over 300,000 students nationwide with an average age of 35. Businesses are demanding their employees have specific skills and adults are going back to schools to get them and our higher education system is answering the demands."


Our family frequently watches figure skating competitions, and what I hear in the documentaries about these skaters is the hours and hours of training and development they went through every week to master their craft.  How many of these skaters were publically educated or homeschooled, I know not, but these skaters found their passion at an early age, and their parents facilitated it.  I hear very few stories of successful, long-term skaters recount that this was something their parents made them do.  I do know of people who were "put in there" because everyone else's rich parents were doing it, but it never lasts long.

I also glean from watching the spotlights, that their "general education", despite most of their focus having been on figure skating training for most of their lives, has not suffered, as so many of them are also credited as "just having finished a degree in [subject]", or "about to enter university" for fields unrelated to their skating.




 
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November 21, 2006, 7:44 am PST

homeschooling debate

Quote From: kschmittz

My husband and I are very "concerned" with our children's education, therefore, we moved to a higher end area with good public schools.  My oldest son is 8 and in 3rd grade.   He is almost a year younger than most of the other kids as their Moms kept them back a year.  He is doing above average work and not having any issues.  I think there is A LOT of mis-understanding about public schools.  First, in my son's class there are LESS kids than the average area's private schools.  Next, there are boudaries set by the district on w hat they can teach your child that do not exist in private school.  In private school (I found this out after we checked out private schools and from a teacher) they can teach whatever they see fit.  Also, it is up to the parent to be involved in their child's education.  If you see your child is struggling in any way, then go to the teacher and work something out.  Public school has a multitude of programs to assist you and with the "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND" there's really no excuse (learning disability or whatever) to not have your child succeed.  We have what is called a 504 plan for my son.  Basically, it is a legal document that will follow him through High School.  I can dicatate (if need be) every move/action the teacher makes in regards to my son.  It is NOT that way now but the option exists.  This is available to all parents at any public school.  Last, I can claim all you do about my son's public school.  That is why we are "dishing out the money" to live in a nice area.  Therefore, the crime and bullying you speak of really isn't an issue where we live.   If it does happen, then my son will take care of it with help from his Dad and I.  I think a lot of people are very mis-guided about not only private school but homeschooling and unschooling as well.  Part of education is not just academics.  There is so much more.  In today's world, there is very little chance for self-sufficiency without a decent education.  Also, you need to have skills beyond that.  If you can't deal with people or situations that may come up in life (like bullying) you are not likely to have a lot of job offers.  In a public school setting, although not perfect, there is much more to learn on a social level.  You learn to wait your turn, respect others and that there are consequences for your actions that can affect your whole class.  Anyone who thinks the majority of private schools kids are perfect, think again.  When I was young, these were among the most wild of us all.  They just had the $$ to get out of most any trouble. 

 

All in all, a good education can come from a good public school.  I agree, not all are good.  There are some even in my district I would not send my kids to.  That is why my hubby and I are very careful if we decided to buy another house in this area.  We want to make sure we stay within school lines that we like.  Also, if a parent expects the school to teach everything to their child then they are in error.  I am in my son's class every week helping out.  No, I am not  Room Mom every year but I am there.  I have been on Field Trips and helped out with parties and such.  I consider myself lucky to be able to do this even though I work full time.  There is academic education which I believe needs to be done by people who are qualified- someone with teaching credentials. For what it's worth, I also believe anyone who homeschools/unschools should have these same credentials. Then there  is the other edcuation which is about life.  This is up to parents. 

 

Last, don't assume every kid in public school has parents who don't care.  Just as you assume this there are people who assume things about you and your choices.  You are not the only parent who is involved in your child's life the way you are.  I have many many friends who are teachers in public schools and I can tell you they are far more trained than anyone realizes.  They are concerned and they do teach every child no matter how big their class is.  Also, in public school in 1st and 2nd grade the class size has to be UNDER 20 kids...again lower than most private schools.  My friends also say their biggest battle is not teaching the kids but dealing with parents.  Food for thought. 

 It is good for your family that you have the money to move to a more expensive area for your child's education.  Most don't have that ablility.  Also, a  higher socio-econimic area does NOT guarantee a good school. 

I agree that a major problem in the public schools is when parents turn their children over and expect the school system to do it ALL.  That is just a recipe for disaster.

I disagree with you when it comes to "socialization".  My son (homeschooled for the past year and a half...7th and now 8th grade) is very socialized.  He just got  his black belt in Karate - where he learns to fight if necessary, walk away if he can, respect, honor, self esteem, etc - he works a part time job two hours a day - where he learns to deal with bosses with different personalities, deadlines, expectations, responsiblity, etc - he spends time at his grandmother's retirement community where he helps her neighbors and socializes with them, he raises bearded dragons and rehabs box turtles.  Then there is his church youth group and all the activities there.  He acolytes at church, is an usher, etc.  He is having a problem right now with some of his friends growing away from him, and is making new friends.  We talk to him and guide him, but this is part and parcel of being a young teen - NOT something he is dealing with because he is homeschooled.  Over all, he is happy, well adjusted and very social.  He is extreemly curious, has some unscheduled learning time when we talk and research things that he is curious about, but he also is required to sit and have structured school.  He's advanced in math and science.

The problem with this whole debate is the anecdotal nature of it.  For every failure in public school, I can show you one brilliant success.  The same can be done for homeschooling.  We can go tit-for-tat back and forth all day and never resolve the "debate".  Neither side will ever run out of "examples" to back thier side, and the other side will always say, "That's just one example.  What about........."  And so it goes.  All I can say is that I feel I am doing what is right for my own child.  He is getting a good, well rounded education and is not lacking in social skills.  As a matter of fact, he may have more social skills that a large number of his peers.

-Lori
 
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November 21, 2006, 7:57 am PST

Vennerable thoughts

Going back to an earlier post, November 18, 2006, 3:43 pm PST, we find this debate:

 

"I will agree that homeschooling is not for everyone, it is only for people who truly care about the education their child receives."  (princess1)

 

for which there was this reply:

 

"So parents who don't home school don't care about the education of their children. Wow!

As a former school administrator...  [...]  I have a Masters in education, and I have no plans to home school my two children. I take great offense at you insinuating that I don't truly care about my children's education."  (julie1418)

 

_____________________

 

In our home school, we studied Venn diagrams at the fourth/fifth grade level. Venn diagrams are sets of circles which represent logical or mathematical relationships. In the debate above, a large circle would represent people who truly care about the education their child receives. Another smaller circle positioned mostly within the large circle would represent home educators. There would still be a significant area inside the large circle but outside the smaller circle that would correspond to parents who care about their child's education but have opted for a different school choice. This is the position described by princess1.

 

 

 

 

In this Venn diagram, all parents who care are in the large circle. All home schooling parents are in the small circle. The sliver of yellow where the small circle lies outside the large circle would represent the miniscule minority of parents who have filed the paperwork to home school but haven't cared to try beyond that.

 

 

 

 

 

Why would a former school administrator not be able to understand a logical concept at a 10 year-old's level? Why would she jump to the conclusion that she was thrown outside the loop of the large circle and become greatly offended? princess1 was merely agreeing that parents in the yellow area should not be home schooling.

 

I have an idea for one of Dr. Phil's show topics; how about:  What Are Those Teacher's Colleges Really Teaching?

 

 
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