Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 24, 2006, 7:11 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: tlmurr

I posted a few days ago about the requirements of parents with responsibilities to the state of New York with regards to forms and paperwork. New York requires a LOT of detailed paperwork. One of the forms is called an IHIP, and on this form, you have to detail the curriculum you are using and it has to be approved before you get a letter of acceptance from the superintendent of your district. What information do unschoolers use for their paperwork or do they not have to file anything with the government? I am aware that some states are more heavily regulated than others, and New York is one of the highest regulated states in the nation. We are homeschoolers of two teens who were in the school system for 8 and 9 years; and together as a family, my husband, two children, and I decided that homeschooling was the best choice for us.
I'm not in New York, and I don't wish to disclose where I live, but where we are, we are required to a) In the registration forms we lay out to the Board of Education what it is we expect to accomplish with our children (and what means we intend to accomplish those goals) in the coming academic year.

b) When that year is over, instead of writing an exam, we submit a report to the BoE and tell them what we did (field trips, unit studies, interviews they did with a dentist perhaps, to find out what they did to become one, for example), and what our children have learned as a result of our activities.

This is expected of all homeschooling parents in the state, whether they homeschool or unschool.
 
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November 24, 2006, 7:14 am PST

.

Quote From: flthomcat

Go to our govt's website on schooling stats and just look at the GREAT stats of homeschooling kids.

 

Again, there is not one shoe for each and every child. It depends on your child, the public school system in your area, the private schools in your area and the homeschooling networks in your area. But NEVER EVER look down upon homeschooling, because the stats say it all!

I'd actually dare say a home schooled child passing the

tests show much higher intelligence.  Schools make

sure they spend at least a week preparing the students

for what they KNOW is on them tests to pass them so

the school can get required and more funds for thier school.

Politics is the factor not the children?

After the testing it goes back to the usual school days and

YES many children get left behind because of inability to adapt

in school for many reasons and a unhealthy home life?

I am sure home schooled has a few too but a parent willing

to give the home schooling shows more interest than most parents?

 
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November 24, 2006, 7:15 am PST

Amen brother!

Quote From: steiwhleur

I graduated from an upper-middle class high school in 1990.  I thought I had learned what needed to be learned so that I could go on to college.  WRONG!  In college I had to pay for REMEDIAL math classes!!! I was so angry.  But then I looked around at who was in my remedial class and they were all students from North Hills High School!!  I wanted to bill the high school for my remedial classes, but my parents said I should just drop it.  I wish I had sent the high school a bill.  Maybe it would have caused them to take another look at their sub-par cirriculum!!

 

That was all hapening 16 years ago!  I now live in New Mexico and the schools here are horrific.  Graduates can't read, write, do math, spell....nothing!  My niece is in the 9th grade and probably reads on a 4th grade level.  She can't spell correctly if her life depended on it...and it does.  No one wants to hire someone too stupid to spell or add or divide correctly.  And her speaking is just as bad.  She sounds like a dullard.  This will haunt her for the rest of her life.  People will assume she's an idiot, not the kind, sweet, beautiful girl that she has become.

 

New Mexico ranks 43rd out of 50 for our inadequate schooling, yet our govenor refuses to address it.  Yes he's trying to throw money at the problem, but we need to start requiring more from the teachers and principals before we can make such demands on our children.  New Mexico also has a "don't ask" policy about if a child is an illegal or an American citizen.  Therefore our schools are flooded with illegals who only speak Spanish.  This adds to the teachers' burden---the teachers must learn and teach Spanish to "accomodate" these illegals.  No wonder we rank so low!!  New Mexico is like a 3rd world country in many ways.

 

Home schooling sounds like the way to go so long as the parents meet all the required credentials and they are diligent about teaching at home.  Home schooled kids should have some kind of network so that they can be around like-aged kids.  That way they can learn the socialization skills needed out in the real world.

 

For our retirement we are looking to go to the mountains of Montana -- maybe we'll find some smart people like us up there!!

 My wife had a similar experience with her high school.  She was so poorly prepared for college, especially in math, that she ended up dropping out of college because of math, embarassment, and frustration.  She worked a retail job for about 10 years and went back to college at the age of 28, where she finally got the remedial classes she needed to make up for the loss.  She has two associate's degrees in electronics and is going for bachelors degrees in history and writing.  She would LOVE to sue her former high school.  She graduated in 1991 from Irmo HS in South Carolina, supposedly the best high school in the state.
 
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November 24, 2006, 7:16 am PST

Teachers are professionals

I find it, as a high school educator, insulting to hear people/parents believe that they can do what I do without any formal training.  Teachers must obtain a four year degree and specific training for their specialty. With the legislation No Child Left Behind, teachers now must be "highly qualified" to teach the classes that they do. If I were to diagnose my child with a health problem and proceed to operate feeling I know whats best for my child's health care I would be prosecuted and most likely loose custody of my children. Why is it so different when it comes to the educating of our countries future. It is time for this country to take education and educators seriously or be prepared to reap the sad consequences.  Teaching is a profession NOT a hobby!
 
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November 24, 2006, 7:20 am PST

School or No school

Quote From: unschooling4us

(This is my second attempt to post. I apologise if both of them show up)

 

We removed our three from school a short while after we adopted them and we began unschooling from the start. I realise that a lot of you have never even heard of unschooling, let alone really understand it. I'd like to leave a few links for you to check out when you have some free time. These are blogs by unschooling families and they'll give you a glimpse into their lives. The first one is mine.

 

http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/

http://radicalunschooling.blogspot.com/

http://organiclearning.blogspot.com/

http://zenmommasgarden.blogspot.com/

http://robinsblueskies.blogspot.com/

 

Thanks and have a great day!

Joanne

 

I have to say that I am very much like Dr. Phil in that I hated school as a child. I did not like the structure or the strict requirements that were placed upon me in my catholic school experience. However, I have come to realize as both an adult and an adult learner, who is currently in school, that it was that structure that was pivotal in the development of my childhood.

 

I recently wrote a paper comparing home schooling to traditional education for a "human development" course. I learned a great deal about home schooling that I was never aware of. I respect a parents’ right to chose for their child and appreciate the enhanced resources that home schooling parents have now available to them which may ensure a strong education for their children. There are certainly benefits to both traditional schooling and to home schooling. What is critical to realize is that it will be the bridge between the two types of educational formats that will truly afford parents, teachers and children the most benefit. It does not need to be an "us" versus "them" philosophy. At the end of the day, sharing resources between both types of educational forums will only help enhance the learning of our children.

 

As for the “un-schooling” that was talked about today, to me, it sounded like the most preposterous approach I have ever heard to teaching. Again, as Dr. Phil stated, preparing a child for the real world certainly requires a great deal of structure and becoming familiar with how life will be in the real world when they are asked to perform. By parents allowing children to do as they please, when they want, on their own accord, they are doing a disservice to them because this clearly does not mirror the real world. Instead, it harms them and only sets them up for failure in adapting to that new reality.   

 

Deep down I do still have my own reservations about the strength of a home schooling parent as compared to an educated, certified teacher. Having the rich training, ability and education behind a teacher does seem to me to provide the best opportunity for a child to really learn and grasp a topic. I often wonder how uneducated parents can truly provide the depth of education that is required for children to succeed. While they can certainly provide the unconditional daily love, support and resources, they must admit that they are restricted as to what educational depth they can really provide that would challenge a child. In a way, I feel it would compromise or hold back a child from reaching what could be their true potential.

 

Michelle Dickinson

New Jersey

 

 
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November 24, 2006, 7:21 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: starsekker

First of all I would like to say that this episode seems extremely biased towards public schoolers.  There was not a traditional home schooler represented.  How can you get an idea of a typical home schooler if you don't show one???? 

 

Unschooling can be a good thing for the right family.  But unschooling does not mean that you set no boundaries for your child.  That can't be healthy.  Not every home schooler is like that - in fact most aren't close.  And what is up with the girl who is paranoid of sending her kids to school?  She doesn't even home school so how can she represent homeschooling?  We are not all a bunch of paranoid idiots. 

 

I have three children all of them are special needs.  One is Bipolar and two are on the Autism Spectrum.  This is the main reason why I home school.  They can get the attention they need as well as the flexibility.  My children are extremely bright.  They are all way above where they should be if they were "typical" children which is exceptional because they have so much more to contend with on a daily basis. 

 

As for social skills - public schools do not foster social skills.  My children actually have to be taught social skills.  It is not something that they can pick up by watching others.  They have friends that they see on a regular basis.  They have home school groups, martial arts, as well as therapies. 

 

My children are not typical.  They would not succeed being educated in the typical manor.  There is no right and wrong in this debate.  There is only what is best for your family.  I have been horrified reading the responses here.  How can someone declare that another person's choices are wrong without truly understanding themselves and there position.  Yes - there are families that would probably do best not homeschooling.  There are also children that would probably benefit by being removed from public schools. 

 

I wish more then anything that there was understanding instead of the constant bickering that goes on. 

I so agree, the basic life of who a child would be begins at birth

and continues with the parents and every person and event

they encounter.  I also think there is many

troubled children who found a savior in a teacher at some

point in their life.             Neither is all bad.

What happens at home can affect a child profoundly and no

manner of schooling can cure a unhealthy home life.

  What we seen on the show today does not define what

most who home school do!   This Mother does not have

a well balanced life going on for those children.  Obviously

a child receiveing a tooth roting, deforming bottle at 5 proves that.

 
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November 24, 2006, 7:21 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: jettav

Children deserve the best education possible and it is up to the parents to figure out what is best for their kids.  I personally like the idea of homeschooling and think it is awesome if the kids are benefitting from it, I know quite a few homeschoolers and their kids are high achievers and doing very well in college as well as life itself. My daughter is in a small Christian school which also is a very awesome setting, the security is unbelievable and the curriculum is top notch and the school has an awesome reputation and my daughter is happy, if it does, for some odd reason fail, we will go the homeschooling route for public schooling in my area is not an option for various reasons.

Parents, think about your kids and as they mature and can communicate well, communicate with them, listen to them and make sure all their needs  as well as interests and goals are being met, we owe it to our kids to give them the best education possible and believe it or not, what works for one may not work for another therefore it is imporant to be alert as parents and thankfully we live in a country that believes in allowing parents to guide and direct their kids.
    apparently you were brought up a lot different than i was.  i don't feel that children should be home doing nothing grow up being not as smart as children that go to school.  i went to grammar school, high school and some college and i feel that i am pretty smart about the world and other things. 
 
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November 24, 2006, 7:22 am PST

The Eudcation of our Children

With all these highly educated morons running around trying to overthrow America from within, they MUST agree with Nikita Khrushchev's (1964 UN) statement of we will LOWER THE MORALS, DIVIDE THE FAMILY and RE-EDUCATE THE CHILDREN. VIA Public/Government Schools.

 

As a person born in 1942, I have had the opportunity to watch how our country as it has gone down the tube with the introduction of MTV, violent games, guns and drugs in the kids hands. As an results in part by the organization known as the American Communist Liberation Union or is it the American Communist Lawyers Union, oh I’m sorry it’s the American Civil Liberties Union as they prefer to be known as.

 

I truly believe that the world would be a better place to live in if organizations like the A.C.L.U., N.O.W. and Coalition of Concerned Patriots, etc and many of the people of Hollywood could take their beliefs to Iran, Syrian, and North Korea, Germany, France, Russia, and other countries that would just welcome their efforts.

 

If they are truly anti-war organizations and overseers of the people’s rights, then go end wars somewhere else; the only war here in America is the war on anti-America activities.

 

When God was removed from the lives of our children, thanks in part to the aclu that is when guns, drugs, MTV, sex was introduced into their lives. And remember, our children spend more time with Government educators awake than awake hours with their parents/single parent. Again lower the morals, divide the family and re-educate the children.

 

There are countries on this planet that need their help a hell of a lot more then America, so please go there and help them re-educate their children, if you dare

 

I was watching your show on Home schooling v Government schooling/Public schooling and for reason expressed above I say take back the children and start renew the morals in the education system.

 
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November 24, 2006, 7:30 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: tconcepts

DEBATE! DISCUSSION SEEMS TO BE A MORE APPROPRIATE WORD. WHY IS THERE A RIGHT OR WRONG IN THIS ANSWER? THERE ISNT. ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS WE ARE TAUGHT IN COLLEGE IS TO EVALUATE OUR LEARNING STYLES. WE ARE TO GO THROUGH THIS WHOLE PROCESS TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE LEARN AS ADULTS. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS WOULD DO THE SAME FOR CHILDREN AS THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT TIME TO FIGURE OUT THIS CONCEPT. WHY DO WE EXPECT CHILDREN TO LEARN THE SAME WAY IN A STANDARDIZED MANNER THEN, TEACH ADULTS TO FIGURE OUT THE BEST WAY TO GAIN KNOWLEDGE AND USE IT TO THEIR ABILITY? I HAVE THE SAME CREDENTIALS AS DR. PHIL AND I HOPE THAT HE IS PROFESSIONAL ENOUGH TO SEE BOTH SIDES OF THIS DEBATE. THERE ARE POSITIVES AND NEGATIVES TO EACH SIDE. I HAVE 2 CHILDREN. ONE IS HOME SCHOOLED AND THE OTHER IS IN PUBLIC SCHOOL. THE OLDER CHILD IS HOME SCHOOL AND WANTS TO BE A LAWYER. BY THE TIME SHE GRADUATES FROM HIGH SCHOOL AT 17, SHE WILL HAVE A TWO YEAR DEGREE FROM COLLEGE AND BY 19 HAVE A BACHELORS DEGREE IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE. SHE THEN WANTS TO PURSUE A JD IN LAW AT DUKE UNIVERSITY. SHE IS AN AVERAGE KID, NOT A GIFTED STUDENT. SHE TALKS TO HER FRIENDS ON THE PHONE, SPENDS THE NIGHT AT FRIENDS HOUSES, PARTICIPATES IN YOUTH GROUPS, VOLUNTEERS HER TIME AT PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO HELP OTHERS READ AND DEVELOP MATH SKILLS, HELPS ELDERLY DURING THE WEEK, AND COMPLETES ALL HER SCHOOL WORK. WHY, BECAUSE SHE LEARNS BEST BY DOING AND WITH LESS DISTRACTION. SHE HAS THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS ALL BECAUSE I WORK HARD TO GIVE HER THAT. YES, I AGREE THERE HAS TO BE SOME SCHEDULE WITH SOME FLEXIBILITY, BUT IF YOU ARE DETERMINED AND CAN DEDICATE THAT TIME TO YOUR CHILD, THEN HOME SCHOOLING DOES ALLOW YOU TO HELP YOUR CHILDREN SUCCEED FASTER. I SPEND 3 HOURS A WEEK COMPLETING HER BI-WEEKLY SCHEDULE ALONE. I ALSO HAVE A DAUGHTER IN PUBLIC SCHOOL. EVENTUALLY, I WILL HOME SCHOOL HER, BUT UNTIL SIXTH GRADE, I WILL KEEP HER IN SCHOOL. I VOLUNTEER IN HER CLASSROOM SEVERAL HOURS A WEEK AND I HELP TEACH THE CHILDREN AND SOMETIMES I CAN BRING BETTER IDEAS UP TO THE TABLE. CHILDREN ARE IN A CHAOTIC ENVIRONMENT AT PUBLIC SCHOOL, THERE ARE NOTES, TALKING, SEXUAL GESTURES, FIGHTING, HITTING, AND IN BETWEEN ALL THE CORRECTIVE BEHAVIOR TACTICS, ARE TEACHERS TRYING TO TEACH OTHER CHILDREN. THERE IS ACTUALLY VERY LITTLE TEACHING IN THE SCHOOLS. I WOULD LIKE FOR EACH PARENT TO GO TO THEIR CHILDS CLASSROOM ONE DAY AT RANDOM TO VOLUNTEER, TO SEE HOW MUCH THEIR CHILDREN ARE REALLY TAKEN IN. THEY GO TO SCHOOL FOR 8 HOURS AND BRING HOME 3 HOURS WORTH OF HOMEWORK AND ASK PARENTS FOR HELP AND WE HAVE TO CHECK THE HOMEWORK. THAT IS WHAT WE CALL TEACHING. EXAMPLE, THEY SEND CHILDREN HOME WITH SPELLING WORDS AND 1 WEEK TO LEARN THEM, SPELLING HOMEWORK TO HELP REINFORCE WHAT THEY ARE LEARNING AND WHO CALLS THEM OUT AT HOME AND MAKES THEM LEARN WHAT THEY DONT KNOW? PARENTS.  WHEN YOU THEY HAVE BOOK REPORTS DUE OR PROJECTS TO COMPLETE AND RESEARCH, WHO HELPS THEM? PARENTS. THE CONCEPTS MAY BE INTRODUCED AT SCHOOL, BUT PARENTS END UP TEACHING AND HELPING THE CHILDREN MORE AT HOME. HIGH SCHOOL BIOLOGY IS NOT DIFFERENT THAN COLLEGE BIOLOGY. US HISTORY IS STILL US HISTORY IN COLLEGE. GENERAL REQUIREMENTS IN HIGH SCHOOL IS THE SAME IN COLLEGE. I AM NOT SAYING THAT ALL PARENTS SHOULD HOME SCHOOL, BECAUSE SOME ARE LAZY AND SOME CAN NOT ACCOMPLISH WHAT THEIR CHILD NEEDS. HOWEVER, PARENTS LIKE MYSELF, ARE DETERMINED TO MEET THEIR NEEDS, WHETHER IT IS IN HOME SCHOOL OR HIGH SCHOOL. EACH FAMILY HAS DIFFERENT NEEDS AND IT IS THE PARENTS CHOICE, BUT THEY NEED TO BE WISE AND MATURE ENOUGH TO MAKE THE RIGHT ONE.

IF I AM GOING TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR MY CHILD IN ALL ASPECTS UNTIL THEY ARE 18 YEARS OF AGE, THEN I ALSO HAVE THE CHOICE TO GIVE HER THE BEST EDUCATION THAT I CAN. IN MY OPINION, AS LONG AS YOU ARE DOING RIGHT BY YOUR CHILDS EDUCATION, AND THEN HOME SCHOOL IS REALLY NO DIFFERENT THAN PRIVATE SCHOOL. PRIVATE SCHOOL AND HOME SCHOOL ARE BOTH OVER A YEAR AHEAD IN ALL SUBJECTS.

 

I am a teacher and wanted to comment of several things that you said.  First: FYI: teachers do a lot of research and incorporate learning styles into the classroom.  Your statement sounds like a false assumption.

 

The bottom line in parenting and growing up is that it takes a village.  Parents, no matter how well educated or well-intentioned, do not possess the ability to provide all of children's' needs.  Children need to have their own experiences with no parent there to fix the wrongs or take them out at an sign of adversity.  Children need to learn to try things that don't initially interest them and to finish things even if they don't want to. 

 

By having children raised so closely to parents, I believe these children to be stifled and crippled.  It may not seem evident now, but wait until college...the social gaps will be regrettably obvious then.  Most home school children either maintain some level of distance from the greater group or overindulge due to lack of exposure to issues like sex and alcohol.

 

Talk to you kids all you want.  Enroll them in a weekly soccer practice if it backs up your argument better.  If you really want to feel convincing, bring Science into the kitchen....no ones really buying it but it may make you feel better.   You can not recreate the atmosphere of school, the expertise of teachers or the rich experience for children.  Parents who enroll their kids in home schooling usually fit into one of the following categories:

 

Motivations

1) They themselves experienced social rejection

2)They themselves experienced academic failure

3)An irrational fear of "the world we live in today"

4) A selfish desire to experience everything that your child experiences so much to that you are willing to deny you child most if not all experiences that don't include you

5) An obsession with control

 

As I read through the pro homeschooling letters, I just enjoy attaching the motivation to their argument.  Notice...what is best for children didn't make the top five. 

 
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November 24, 2006, 7:32 am PST

Nutty education

Quote From: purplepenny

"Next, there are boudaries set by the district on w hat they can teach your child that do not exist in private school.  In private school (I found this out after we checked out private schools and from a teacher) they can teach whatever they see fit."

That is an excellent point. Private schools that get no public funding can teach whatever nutty thing they want and that worries me greatly.
 Unfortunately, Public schools get public funding, and can also teach whatever nutty thing they want.  Most states model their math program after NCTM standards, which are consistently criticized by mathematicians as unsound and virtually guaranteed to lead to poor performance.   These standard are part of why the US performs so poorly on the TIMMS test, while Singapore does the best.

This is also why students are not taught grammar in high school.
 
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