Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

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Created on : Friday, November 17, 2006, 12:57:50 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Parents want the best for their children, but what’s the best way to educate them? Dr. Phil’s guests face off in a debate about whether to school, homeschool or unschool. Dana and her husband, Joe, call themselves radical unschoolers. They say education happens as a side effect of life, and they don’t believe in tests, curriculums or grades. Are their three kids learning what they need to know? Then, RaeAnn says public schools are death traps and wants to homeschool her children. Her husband, Steve, says their kids are safer at school than they are at home. Can this couple reach a compromise? Plus, Nicole feels like an outcast at 26. She says she hated being homeschooled, and couldn’t relate to other kids. Share your thoughts here.

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November 24, 2006, 8:38 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

It is absolutely up to the parents to decide how to educate their children.  I'm so glad for that.  After two years of weighing all of our options, my husband and I have decided to homeschool our children.  At first, I didn't know if I could commit to it, but the more research I did and the more people I talked to, I really do believe it will be the best fit for us.  We live in a big city and can't afford to live in the "better" school districts.  Nor can we afford the tuition of a private Christian school.  But even if we could pay for these things, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with those options, since especially in the city it seems that bad behavior is perfectly acceptable in schools, public and private.  The biggest reason we will homeschool is so that our children will get a solid Biblical foundation in every subject they study.  I plan to have a very structured environment with tests and grades, but also field trips and hands on learning. I'm not worried about the socializing issue at all.  I think that's just silly.  We don't plan to ostracize our kids from others.  That would be impossible anyway with all the activities we have at our church and also with our large extended family.  As for the whole puberty/teenage idea that homeschooled kids are somehow missing out, I really hope they do miss out on certain things!  Teenage years are probably the most critical years of development, and I'd rather we be the most influential voice our kids hear at those ages.  I want our kids to be different than the others and to know that actions have consequences and that by that age they need to be responsible for their choices.  I know homeschooling isn't for everyone.  That's no problem.  We have very good friends that grew up in the public school system and plan to do the same with their kids.  We don't judge them at all.  It is up to parents, and if you're Christians, it's between you and God.  But no matter what option is chosen, parents need to be involved!
 
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November 24, 2006, 8:39 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: tamika12767

I find it, as a high school educator, insulting to hear people/parents believe that they can do what I do without any formal training.  Teachers must obtain a four year degree and specific training for their specialty. With the legislation No Child Left Behind, teachers now must be "highly qualified" to teach the classes that they do. If I were to diagnose my child with a health problem and proceed to operate feeling I know whats best for my child's health care I would be prosecuted and most likely loose custody of my children. Why is it so different when it comes to the educating of our countries future. It is time for this country to take education and educators seriously or be prepared to reap the sad consequences.  Teaching is a profession NOT a hobby!

Parents diagnose their children's health issues on a regular basis, and only go to a professional when there is an illness. 

 

My children have had no problem with their education, so no need for a professional. 

 

Home education works, formal training is not necessary and doesn't show any better  results.  Too bad you feel insulted by that, it is simply the truth. 

 
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November 24, 2006, 8:40 am PST

Good luck with that!

Quote From: sssmommy

unschooling does not mean letting kids grow up 'stupid' as you say.  they have the ability to learn ANYTHING that they CHOOSE to learn.  unschoolers might not be at grade level with their so-called peers...but whatever they are lacking in can easily be learned........when real life requires it.  unschoolers have not had the DESIRE TO LEARN squashed out of them.

 

as far as fighting for a job in the workplace....they simply won't be.  most unschoolers have no desire to join the typical workforce...they are more likely to start their own businesses.  they are innovative and the confines of what most people call 'work' are not what they are looking for in life.  they will not be so easily convinced that being a paid slave is the way to a happy life.

You wrote: "Most unschoolers have no desire to join the typical workforce...they are more likely to start their own businesses.  they are innovative and the confines of what most people call 'work' are not what they are looking for in life.  they will not be so easily convinced that being a paid slave is the way to a happy life."...

 

What a bitter picture of the real world you are painting for them. Shame on you.

 

How can a homeschooler truly start thier own successful business without higher education and an understanding of the business world? What a pity, what a real pity....

 

 

 

 

 
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November 24, 2006, 8:41 am PST

I have to disagree

Quote From: homeschooljen

Homeschoolers do not take advantage of public school, even though their taxes support it, because they believe that for their children there's a better way. 
It is up to the superintendent of the district whether to allow homeschoolers in the district to take part in any of the offerings of the public school system. The regulations for New York specifically state that homeschoolers do not have the right to access public school resources. Some superintendents are very good about this and will let some students play in the bands or what have you, but others are not that inclined.
 
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November 24, 2006, 8:43 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: jettav

Well, it's wonderful that uyou succeeded through school and I agree that therea re some who don;t give a hoot while attending school, believe me, We all know those type of kids but also there are kids with learnign disabilities and those who DO studya nd want to succeed but they still fail. You get over your better then thou attitude and have some compassion on those who do need maybe more one on one then waht the schools are able to give, teachers are responsible for a group of kids that sometimes with over crowded classes and there is no way on this planet A teacher can meet every child's needs, I don't care how good of a teacher they are.

And rather you realize it or not kids who are homesscooled AND private school taught CAN AND DO succeed. My daughter is only 5 and I taught her to read, to do basic math, I give her spelling test every so often, she writes in sentence. She is getting ready to be tested at her WONDERFUL PRIVATE school that is a high rated school in my county, and I guarentee, she is doing second and third grade work right now in class as well as at home, my three year old is well on her way as well.

A good education does not have to come from the public school system, look where the crime and the bullying for the most part comes from. I guarentee that those of us paying for our children's education has sought out the best of the best, Do you think I would be dishing out money for this if I didn't think it was imporant? I say Private schooling rocks and for those who have and are homeschooling with much success, I say Kudos to them and thier kids and as fara s unschooling calls, I do not know enough about that but coming from an area that is big on homeschooling, well, there are a whole lot more success stories then you can imagine.

Kids learn in different ways and styles, my daughters class is not over crowded, Both Principals know every child and parent by name as they walk in and out of school, there is ALWAYS some one at the doors when it is opened, and the programming is awesome. My 5 year old is int he choir as well as Spanish and getting high marks, Public schooling is not the only way to go, My kids are not using it and for those who have a problem with it, I say too bad, get over it, I as the parent of my children know what I am doing when it comes to my children and I will go out of my way to keep my kids safe and in a learning atmosphere that will help theo become who theya re meant to be.

I agre that kids and parents need to put effort in teaching and learning and at the same time teachers and staff need to concentrate on the kids and make sure there is enough staff to cover the bases including one on one teaching IF needed as I know there are kids who benefit more on a smaller class size. Not all kids are brains, and not all kids get it, the first time around, I went to college with a girl who studied more then any one I knew, didn't miss a class, took notes, paid attention, went to study groups, spent a whole lot of her time in the library and guess what, she was barely average, failed a lot of tests, it doesn't come easy for every one, I have another friend who barely graduated and it wasn't for the lack of studying and committment, she was teased for being learning disability but the girl did everything in her power to make it as she did, she is now a 30 something year old with a successful job doing very well but it took a whole lot more work and effort, getting around the bullying then it did some one like you. Not every one is  as good as you wich I am suire you are not perfect at everyhting you do, maybe you have never failed a class and that is good but remember not every one who fail is lazy and just becasue some one homeschools or goes to private school does not mean their is laziness or anything else that is negative, I say the kids come first and it is up to the parents to make sure their children is gettignt he best of the best educaton for their  children, it isn't for society to decide what is best, thatis the parents job, afterall we know our kids better then any one else on this planet, to allt he wonderful parents out there, kudos to you for putting your kids first.
I am an english teacher in the public school system in Pennsylvania, and i think it is quite humorous that somehow you feel that you are so well qualified to teach your kids at home, but you can't even spell!   How are you even going to teach you children to spell correctly if you cannot do so yourself?    I earned a bachelor's degree in elementary education, and a master's degree in reading which qualifies me to teach reading to children from grades K-12, or to those who have reading disabilities.   Not every student is "normal".   I don't mean this to be taken any way that what i mean by it.  I mean that some students have specific learning disabilities that need to be addressed by a qualified person.   I have a friend who has a son who was adopted from Poland, and who has a slight physical disability.   She thought it would be best if she put him in a private school, so that she could protect him from the "mean kids in the public school system".   After several years of him struggling to succeed in private schools (because he was unable to perform at grade level), she asked for my advice.   I told her that she would be very surprised at the way students with both physical and mental disabilities are accepted in the public school system.   I also told her that he would probably be tested by one of our school psychologists to see if he had a specific learning disability.   She decided to enroll him, and he was tested.   They found that his IQ was in the MR (mentally retarded) range, and that he should be placed in a special education classroom.   As a result, her son is succeeding in school at his level, and is loved by everyone.   She said that it is the best thing that she ever could have done for him.   So before you trash the public school system, and decide that its best for you to educate your kids at home, you may want to consider educating yourself first.   I don't think that i am qualified to do what Dr. Phil does for a living, and i would never attempt to counsel my child rather than seeking professional help, why do you think that you are qualified to teach your kids without the proper training?
 
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November 24, 2006, 8:49 am PST

You Don't want what is best?

Quote From: sramsey3544

I am a teacher and wanted to comment of several things that you said.  First: FYI: teachers do a lot of research and incorporate learning styles into the classroom.  Your statement sounds like a false assumption.

 

The bottom line in parenting and growing up is that it takes a village.  Parents, no matter how well educated or well-intentioned, do not possess the ability to provide all of children's' needs.  Children need to have their own experiences with no parent there to fix the wrongs or take them out at an sign of adversity.  Children need to learn to try things that don't initially interest them and to finish things even if they don't want to. 

 

By having children raised so closely to parents, I believe these children to be stifled and crippled.  It may not seem evident now, but wait until college...the social gaps will be regrettably obvious then.  Most home school children either maintain some level of distance from the greater group or overindulge due to lack of exposure to issues like sex and alcohol.

 

Talk to you kids all you want.  Enroll them in a weekly soccer practice if it backs up your argument better.  If you really want to feel convincing, bring Science into the kitchen....no ones really buying it but it may make you feel better.   You can not recreate the atmosphere of school, the expertise of teachers or the rich experience for children.  Parents who enroll their kids in home schooling usually fit into one of the following categories:

 

Motivations

1) They themselves experienced social rejection

2)They themselves experienced academic failure

3)An irrational fear of "the world we live in today"

4) A selfish desire to experience everything that your child experiences so much to that you are willing to deny you child most if not all experiences that don't include you

5) An obsession with control

 

As I read through the pro homeschooling letters, I just enjoy attaching the motivation to their argument.  Notice...what is best for children didn't make the top five. 

I don't think that as a person who has NEVER experienced any part of home-schooling that you have enough REAL knowledge to base your opinions on. You only have one side. I think that as someone who has been home-schooled, and attended both public and private schools that I can form an opinion based on actual experience. You won't want a doctor who has only done general practice to operate on you? You would want a surgeon, someone with real experience. I spent most of my school years as a home-schooled student. So, when you said "stifled and crippled" you were insulting me and hundreds of other people you have never even met! In fact, nearly every member of my extended family was home-school. I bet that if you met one of them, you would never guess that they were home-schooled. In fact, I bet that there are more home-schooled people that you depend on everyday just to function then you know. So, I beg of you to open your mind to the possibility that not all home-schooling is bad, because I know that you realize that not all public schools turn out well educated and socially adept students. I am not that old, but I have met some VERY lacking public school graduates, but I am not going to judge the entire system based on several very ignorant graduates. I thought that getting an education was suppose to open your mind to new things...
 
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November 24, 2006, 8:50 am PST

Re: Homeschoolers use of public school resources

Below are  the qualifications of a homeschool "teacher" in NYS taken from the Homeschool Legal Defense Association website; and below that, I have posted some answers to FAQs on this board.

 

Qualifications:
“Competent” - A person is deemed to be competent if they follow the regulations

 

These are the required paperwork, hours, and such required:

Notice:
File annual notice of intent with the local superintendent by July 1 or within 14 days if starting home schooling mid-year; complete and submit an Individualized Home Instruction Plan (form provided by district)
Recordkeeping:
Maintain attendance records (must make available for inspection upon request of the local superintendent); file, with the local superintendent, quarterly reports listing the number of hours of instruction during quarter, description of material covered in each subject, and a grade or narrative evaluation in each subject
Testing:
File, with the local superintendent, an annual assessment by June 30; must be from a standardized test every other year in grades 4-8, and every year in grades 9-12; the child should score above the 33rd percentile or their home instruction program could be placed on probation; other years can be satisfied by either another standardized test or a written narrative evaluation prepared by a certified teacher, a home instruction peer review panel, or other person chosen by the parent with the consent of the superintendent

 

Frequently asked questions about the loan/borrowing or use of public school resources:

 

15. May parents or students on home instruction borrow instructional items from the public school such as library books, microscopes and movie projectors?
Yes. Although a public school is not obligated by law to lend such items, it may allow parents or students to borrow available materials.

16. Is a student instructed at home entitled to benefit from the loan programs (textbooks, library materials and computer software) available to students enrolled in nonpublic schools?
A student instructed at home is not enrolled in a nonpublic school and, therefore, the district is not obligated to loan those items which a district is required to provide, by statute, to children attending nonpublic schools. Although not required, a school district may offer such loans to the extent available.

17. Is the school district required to furnish health services to students on home instruction?
No. The district is not required to furnish health services.

18. Is the district responsible for providing remedial programs for students instructed at home?
No. The district is not responsible for providing remedial programs for these students.

19. May a student instructed at home participate in the instructional program of the school district?
The legislature has not authorized part-time attendance and, therefore, a student instructed at home may not participate in the instructional program of the school district except for dual enrollment opportunities the district may make available under Section 3602-c of the Education Law and for special education programs and services the district is required to make available.

 
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November 24, 2006, 8:52 am PST

see homeschooling in action

Hi all! What a great topic. I'm a public school teacher who from what I saw vowed never to send my kids there (and these were 'good' schools. So now I homeschool my 5 year old but not without a lot of thought and trying to find out everything I can. So one thing I did was visit homeschooling families and became a fly on the wall and filmed them. I personally have decided to unschool and use books at the library and the world at large but am inspired by the three families who let me watch them for a day then return to interview the parents. If you are interested in watching what these families do or are curious about whether you should homeschool or not you can email me at tuscanspeak@yahoo.com.
 
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November 24, 2006, 8:54 am PST

Two years of trying to make a change

Quote From: michelle_ev

Come on now, if you are not happy with your public school system, the easy way out is to avoid it. The more challenging approach would be to actually speak up and get involved with the school system through programs etc. Now, now, that would require work and effort. Most people opt for the easy way out. Avoidance.

That's how long I spent at my children's school trying to make a change where I attended every board meeting, was accused of being responsible for having one superintendent ousted, and this is in a very small rural community; so for you to be sarcastic and say that would "require work and effort" is just an insult to the parents who do try before taking such drastic steps. If two years is avoidance and taking the easy way out, then I would love you to tell me what I should have done instead. Homeschooling two teens is hardly the easy way out.
 
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November 24, 2006, 8:54 am PST

11/24 Great School Debate

Quote From: michelle_ev

Come on now, if you are not happy with your public school system, the easy way out is to avoid it. The more challenging approach would be to actually speak up and get involved with the school system through programs etc. Now, now, that would require work and effort. Most people opt for the easy way out. Avoidance.

Perhaps, my response seemed caviler.  I was not advocating that parents should always withdraw from public schools if they don’t agree with some of their practices.  What I meant to convey through my response, is that public school isn’t for everyone.  Why should parents send their kids to public school simply because it may be the cheapest alternative?  If parents feel that their children will best benefit from private school or homeschooling, that’s their choice.  You don’t just pick an option simply because it is available. 
 


 

Also, any homeschooling parent could tell you that homeschooling is definitely not the easy way out – talk about more work and effort! 

 
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