Topic : 11/24 Great School Debate

The effects of the choice we make to educate our children is so situational that it is irrational to believe that we can make global conclusions regarding which educational option is best for all children. This is just another way of institutionalizing the human personality and giving ourselves the illusion that we can predict and manipulate the outcome. We can research, theorize, examine, and statistisize education until we turn blue but in the end all we are doing is giving society an open door to dictate yet another aspect of raising our children.

Choosing how your children are educated is, and always should be, the right of the parents. Putting any type of education in a box and labeling it bad or improper shows a lack of support for the parent's right to make decisions for their children and is dangerous ground to tread on. By trying to mandate what is right and acceptable for another family you are essentially opening the door to others to mandate what is right and acceptable in your family.  

I am absolutely amazed by the anger on this board over unschool vs. homeschool vs. public school. All three educational processes offer something different. I have four children; each has a different learning style and different needs. Individuals are not "one size fits all".

Unschooled offers unstructured learning. This is my least favorite form of education but I can see the benefits of allowing a child develop opinions, ideas, beliefs, and so much more without the pressure of someone else forcing their choices on the child.

Homeschooling offers a more structured learning process. Most of these children have the same type of education as those in the public school system but they are allowed to learn at their own pace. These children can move as fast or as slow as needed based upon their own learning styles and needs. There are more opportunities for hands-on learning and field trips. The down side? Not all parents have the ability or opportunity to provide a good homeschooling experience.

The public school system is the most commonly accepted and used educational process but is a "one size fits all" system. All students are expected to follow the same basic program. There is a certain amount of material that has to be covered during the school year therefore we cannot slow down for those children who are having difficulties. Good teachers will provide extra help before or after school for those who need it but too many students cannot take advantage of these offerings. For the student whose mind races forward and who excels in their education.... well, there isn't much to be offered.

I do not feel I have the ability to teach my children so they are in the public school system. It is a decision I constantly doubt. The social aspects of school have been horrible. The bullies have been many of the teachers and administrators. Too many of the teachers are not qualified to teach the subjects they are teaching. (Yes, I have checked on the teacher’s qualifications.) We recently attended parent/teacher conferences and were told that the other students are holding our oldest back. This is the same student that was told during enrollment that taking Algebra 2, Biology 2, and Geometry along with his other subjects would be too difficult for him and that they had never given anyone that hard a schedule. He does not fit into the "one size fits all" mold. As for test scores.... according to the state web page, 59% of this schools 8th graders are at satisfactory or advanced levels in math...62% in reading. To me, this is unacceptable!

This will be my third post on this subject. One post is,  "YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK". I haven't noticed too many people interested in what is really happening to the money you pay into the system. Whether you are an advocate of unschooled, homeschool, or the public education system your tax dollars go to the public school system and it is EVERYONE'S responsibility to find out how your tax dollar is being spent. It seems that many are too busy attacking each other about their choices and too few are busy trying to find ways to support each other and their choices. In the long run, all of our children suffer. Everyone, get involved in your local school district. Whether you homeschool or not. Find out the teachers qualifications, where the school money is being spent, who your school board members are, and attend school board meetings. Everyone has this right. Please use it.

I think we can all agree that some children do not do well in a public school environment. Some parents should not homeschool their children. As for non schooling, I have never heard of this. We do learn things from everyday life but not everyone speaks proper English and that is not something I want my children learning wrong. I did not go to school to teach, but I homeschool and I teach at the private school at our church. We have 12-16 year old kids coming in from the public school that can't even read. The teachers read the tests to them rather than take the time to teach them to read. There are some great teachers out there that love what they are doing and why they are really there; but lets face it there are some teachers that have and are dropping the ball for the extra bonus they get for teaching the "test". There should be no bonus' for teachers whose class gets better scores than others on the EOG. The public school system has and is failing our children. I homeschool because God burdened my heart to do so. I have a great curriculum and not only do they learn English and Math they learn life skills. When I was pregnant with my son 3 years ago my then 13 year old daughter was able to go through this process with me. She will never learn that in public school. Not the way I want her to anyway. She not only learned the process and the beauty of having a child but the morals that we have instilled in her of no sex before marriage and that having a child is not about "something to love".  I have a real problem with our school system pushing condoms in our childs face and saying have safe sex instead of teaching them abstinance. I do understand this is also an individual choice and that teenagers have to make those decisions on there own and reap the consequences. However when parents set high standards for their children and the school system gives them alternatives they are in essence breaking down the parents teachings at home. This is a sensitive debate and everyone has an opinion, but there are some real issues with the public schools. As far as the word Socialization goes I would like for you to read this: Please take the extra time to read this. You never know you may learn something.

The word makes my skin crawl. As homeschoolers, we are often accosted by people who assume that since we're homeschooling, our kids won't be "socialized." The
word has become such a catch phrase that it has entirely lost any meaning.

The first time I heard the word, I was attending a Catholic day school as a
first grader.

Having been a "reader" for almost 2 years, I found the phonics and reading
lessons to be incredibly boring. Luckily the girl behind me felt the same way,
and when
we were done with our silly little worksheets, we would chat back and forth.
I've never known two 6 yr. olds who could maintain a quiet conversation, so
naturally a ruler-carrying nun interrupted us with a few strong raps on our
desk. We were both asked to stay in at recess, and sit quietly in our desks for
the entire 25 minutes, because "We are not here to socialize, young ladies."

Those words were repeated over and over throughout my education, by just
about every teacher I've ever had. If we're not there to socialize, then why were
we
there? I learned to read at home. If I finished my work early (which I always
did,) could I have gone home? If I were already familiar with the subject
matter, would I have been excused from class that day? If schools weren't
made for socializing, then why on earth would anyone assume that homeschoolers
were
missing out?

As a society full of people whose childhoods were spent waiting anxiously for
recess time, and trying desperately to "socialize" with the kids in class; It
is often difficult for people to have an image of a child whose social life
is NOT based on school buddies. Do you ever remember sitting in class, and
wanting desperately to speak to your friend? It's kind of hard to concentrate
on the lessons when you're bouncing around trying not to talk. Have you ever
had
a teacher who rearranged the seats every now and then, to prevent talking,
splitting up friends and "talking corners." Were you ever caught passing notes
in class?

Now- flash forward to "real life." Imagine the following scenes:

Your Employer is auditing the Inter-Office Email system and comes across a
personal note between you and a coworker. You are required to stand at the
podium in the next sales meeting to read it aloud to your coworkers.

The Police knock on your door, and announce that because you and your
neighbor have gotten so close, they're separating you. You must move your home and
your belongings to the other side of town, and you may only meet at public
places on
weekends.

You're sitting at a booth waiting for a coworker to arrive for a scheduled
lunch date. Suddenly a member of upper management sits down across from you and
demands your credit cards. When your friend arrives, you just order water and
claim you're not hungry, since he stole your lunch money.

You're applying for a job and in an unconventional hiring practice, you are
made to line up with other applicants, and wait patiently while representatives
from two competing companies take their pick from the lineup.

You're taking your parents out for an anniversary dinner. After you find a
table, a waiter tells you that seniors have a separate dining room, lest they
"corrupt" the younger members of society.

You go to the grocery store only to find that since you are 32 years old you
must shop at the store for 32 year olds. It's 8 miles away and they don't sell
meat
because the manager is a vegetarian, but your birthday is coming up and soon
you'll be able to shop at the store for 33 yr. olds.

You'd like to learn about Aviation History. You go to the library and check
out a book on the subject only to be given a list of "other subjects" that you
must read about before you are permitted to check out the aviation book.

You're having a hard time finding what you need in the local department
store. The saleslady explains that each item is arranged alphabetically in the
store, so
instead of having a section for shoes, you will find the men's shoes in
between the maternity clothes and the mirrors.

Your Cable Company announces that anyone wishing to watch the Superbowl this
year must log on a certain number of hours watching the Discovery Channel
before
they can be permitted to watch the game.

You apply for a job only to be told that this job is for 29 year olds. Since
you're 32, you'll have to stay with your level.

In a group project, your boss decides to pair you up with the person you
don't "click" with. His hope is that you'll get learn to get along with each
other, regardless of how the project turns out.

These absurd examples were created to point out how absolutely ridiculous the
idea of "socializing" in schools is. Many people had a friend who they stayed
friends with all through grammar school- WHY? Because their names were
alphabetically similar, and they always ended up in line with each other. As an
adult, have you ever made friends with someone simply because your names were
similar? How long would such a friendship last and how meaningful would it be,
providing you had nothing else in common?

People often use the bully as an example of why it's so important to let kids
"socialize" at school. If that's so important, then the bully needs to go to
JAIL after a few months, because self-respecting society simply doesn't put up
with that, nor should my 6 yr. old. Sure, there are crappy people in the
world, but the world does a much better job of taking care of these things. A
bullying brat in the first grade will
still be a bullying brat in the 6th grade. He will still be picking on the
same kids year after year after year, unless he moves to a new town. How long
would the average adult put up with a bully? Personally, as an adult, I have
only come across one
grown up bully. I choose not to be around this miserable woman. So do many
other people. THAT is real life. If she were a coworker, I would find a
different job. If she worked at a business I patronized- not only would I refrain from
doing business with that company, I would write a letter to the bully, her
manager, the owner and the main office. A kid in a classroom has no way to
emotionally protect themselves
against such a person. I would never expect my kids to put up with bad
treatment from a bully in the name of "toughening them up." For what? So they can be
submissive wimps when they grow up too? So they can "ignore" their miserable
bosses and abusive spouses?In real life, if an employer discovered that an
employee was harassing the other staff members, that employee could be fired
(pending the 90 day evaluation) or relocated. In real life, if you are so
dreadfully harassed by a coworker you can seek legal recourse independently. In a
classroom, the teacher
and other children are often powerless.

The idea of learning acceptable social skills in a school is as absurd to me
as learning nutrition from a grocery store.

As Homeschoolers, the world is our classroom. We interact with people of all
ages, sexes and backgrounds. We talk to and learn from everyone who strikes
our interest. We use good manners in our home and I'm always pleased when others
comment on the manners my children have picked up. I believe good manners to
be an important social skill.

Respecting common areas is also of value to us. We often carry a grocery bag
with us on walks, in case we find trash that needs to be discarded. When we're
waiting at a bus stop, if there is trash on the ground, we make a point to
carry it onto the bus and discard of it properly. Once, while waiting at a bus
stop- we saw a grown man drop his popsicle wrapper on the ground. He was 2 feet
from a trash can- My daughter looked up at me with eyes as big as saucers. I
told her (out loud) "It must have blown out of his hand from that little wind,
because no-one would throw
trash on the ground on purpose. I'm sure when he's done with his popsicle, he
will pick it up and throw it away correctly- otherwise, we can take care of it
so we don't have an ugly world." He did pick it up, rather sheepishly. I
can't imagine expecting my children to have a respect for the cleanliness of
common areas in an environment where bathroom walls are covered in graffiti and
trees are scratched with
symbols of "love" of all things.

Another social skill we strive to teach our children is that all people are
created equal. I can't imagine doing that in an environment where physically
disadvantaged children are segregated into a "special" classroom. Or even
children who speak a different language at home. They are segregated and forced to
learn English, while never acknowledging the unique culture they were raised
in, and not enabling the
other students to learn FROM them. Learning, in school, comes from the books
and teachers. We will learn Spanish from a BOOK, not from a
Spanish-speakingstudent; and not until 7th grade.

I have never felt it would be beneficial to stick my 6-yr. old in a room full
of other 6-yr. olds. I believe God created a world full of people of all ages
and sexes to insure that the younger ones and older ones learn from each
other. A few years ago, we were
living thousands of miles from any older family members, so I brought my kids
(then 5 and 2) to an assisted living facility, so they could interact with
the elderly. Staff members told us that many of the older people would wake up
every day and ask if we would be visiting soon. We always went on Wednesdays.
My daughters learned some old show tunes while one of the men played piano, and
the others would sing along. If I didn't have to chase my 2-yr. old around, I
would have had plenty of women ready to share the art of crocheting with me
(something I've always wanted to
learn.) If a friend was too sick to come out of their room during our visit,
we would often spend a few minutes in their room. I always let them give the
kids whatever cookies they had baked for them, and I ended up cleaning a few of
the apartments while we visited, simply because I would have done the same
for my own Grandmother. Every room had pictures from my kids posted on their
refrigerators. We called this "Visiting the Grandmas and Grandpas" and my
daughters both (almost 2 years later) have fond memories of our visits. I'm sure that
if we were still visiting there, my unborn child would have a thousand
handmade blankets and booties to keep him warm all winter.

I don't remember any such experiences in my entire School life, although I do
remember being a bit afraid of old people if they were too wrinkly or weak
looking. I never really knew anyone over 60. I never sped down the hall on
someone's wheelchair lap, squealing as we popped wheelies and screeched around
corners. I never got to hear stories about what life was like before indoor
plumbing and electricity, from the point of view of a woman with Alzheimers, who
might believe she was still 5 years old, talking with my daughter as if she
were a friend. I never got to
help a 90 yr. old woman keep her arm steady while she painted a picture. And
I never watched a room full of "grandma's" waiting for me by the window,
because we
were 15 minutes late.

On a recent visit to an Art Gallery, we noticed a man walking back and forth,
carrying framed artwork from his old pickup truck. I asked my 6 yr. old if she
thought he might be the artist. We both agreed that was a possibility, and
after a little pep-talk to overcome her stage fright, she approached him and
asked. He was the artist, and he was bringing in his work to be evaluated by the
curator. We all sat down and he explained some of his techniques and listened
to her opinions about which piece she liked best. He told about how he enjoyed
art when he was 6 and would "sell" pictures to family and friends. He
recounted how he felt while creating a few of the pieces, and how each one has
special meaning to him. He even let
her know how nervous he was to show them to the curator and how he hoped she
found them as interesting as we did. As he was called into the office, a group
of thirty-four 3rd graders filed past, ever so quietly, while their teacher
explained each piece on the walls. The children were so quiet and well behaved.
They didn't seem to mind moving on from one picture to the next (The problem
with homeschoolers is
they tend to linger on things they enjoy). They didn't seem to have any
questions or comments (Maybe they'll discuss that later in class). And they never
got a
chance to meet the gentleman in the pickup truck.

I hope my kids aren't missing out on any "socialization."

I am glad my children are missing out on public school socialization. Thanks and many blessings to each one of you and Merry Christmas. Missy

The person you replied to is missing a whole lot of understanding.  In my opinion, public schools cannot be fixed.  Common Sense and Logic went out the door and political correctness stepped in.  The Good Lord and prayer went out the door and now Satan is more powerful than ever and children are becomming increasingly violent.  Schools do not stand a chance of being fixed.  Take a look in the differences of schools today and schools of the past.  Look at how different things were back when the purpose of school was to learn - now suddenly even intelligent people like Dr Phil think that the purpose is about learning to be social.  That is such a joke when you consider that no where in real life is that atmosphere duplicated.  Once a person grows up and reaches adulthood, fitting in is not such a big part of life for MOST people.

My kids will never be schooled by the system, we'll learn to be social from the real world, thank you very much!  The real world has evil too but at least a person can escape it - in the school, there is no escape because the system has to allow the evil.  Well, until it kills somebody - then it gets kicked out! 

I am not a parent, so I can only draw on my own experience as a student from so many years ago.

My parents put me through a private religious school.  I know it was a great sacrifice for them, but they did it and I feel I received a good education from that school. 

Regarding this school debate and the recent show on "unschooling," my personal opinion is that home schooling should be an option for students up to the 6th grade.  Above that, they really need the socializing skills they would learn from being in a school environment.  Although I do acknowledge the presence of programs such as 4H, scouting, community theatre and the like, they really are no substitute, except perhaps for church youth groups, which can provide many of the social skills a home-schooled student would not receive otherwise.

However, while the pros and cons of each method were debated, the one option that was not mentioned was private school.  Everyone was emphasizing the importantance of public schools (although I think public school is a huge failure, myself); however, some mention, at the very least, should have been made about private schools.  Not all private schools are religious.  There are many non-religious private schools in this country that can hold their own against any public school.

Public school really isn't a viable choice, in my opinion.  Classes in some schools are so large, students are lucky if they can get more than a minute or two of personal time with a teacher.  In the private school I attended, the classes were small enough so that teachers could devote much of their time to the needs of their students.  No "wham, bam, thank you ma'am" as in public schools; instead, the students were allowed to learn at their own pace, with a little encouragement from the teachers.

I have heard many people say that private schools have nothing to offer their students.  That's where they are wrong.  In my own years of private schooling, I sung in the school choir and learned the piano, played on the basketball team, was involved in the pep club, worked on the yearbook committee, assisted in the audio-visual department, and participated in school theatre.  And because it was a religious school, I was involved in the school's nursing-home and community choir ministries.  There were also field trips to zoos, museums, etc.  So I was quite involved with extra-curricular school activities.

What it all boils down to is this:  a high-school diploma is really nothing more than a license to learn.

As I said at the beginning of my post, I am not a parent.  But if I were one, I would put my children though private school, even if it meant sacrificing a lot.  My parents did it for me, and I feel I am a better person for it.

Actually, he surprised me regardless...he's an awesome kid!

Thanks for your testimony, but I actually posted this several days ago before I even knew what unschooling is.  If it worked for you...that's great!

Marie