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Topic : 02/01 A Difficult Reunion – Part 1

Number of Replies: 193
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Created on : Friday, January 26, 2007, 01:59:13 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Dr. Phil follows the continuing story of Erica, who as a little girl survived the unthinkable. At just 2 years old, she witnessed her father, Mark, murder her mother. Her father spent nearly two decades behind bars for this heinous crime. Now that he has been released from prison, Erica will be reunited with him -- the father who murdered her own mother -- for the first time in over 20 years. In the first of two parts, Dr. Phil arranges a powerful reunion that Erica hopes will bring answers, but instead raises many more questions. When Erica's curiosity turns to anger, her emotions are too much for Mark to bear, and he walks right off the Dr. Phil stage! Tell us what you think!

Find out what happened on the show.

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February 2, 2007, 7:36 am CST

murder

How much of this does his daughter really remember....   they were two and four.  I can vaguely remeber happenings as a four year old I can't remember nothing at two unless it is told to me.   Every happenigng in life has two sides which really happened is usually buried deep with in the two sides of both stories.  Have family members continue to bring this up to them.  Yes, I understand it was probably very traumatic for them.. Yes he was a Drug addict ......and he had an abuse problem..... Yes, to her family what he did is totally unforgivable.  How much of this do these girls really remember............ Yes they say trauma gets buried deep inside you and you dont remember it when you are young. I just hope they all can found the peace they are looking for buti feel these questions wewre missed.  Yes I understand this man is all so very very wrong.  My god Bless all these people.    
 
February 2, 2007, 7:48 am CST

I have read your post several times...

Quote From: purejuice

I speak as someone with nearly 20 years of clean and sober time.

 

Dr. Phil, as the son of an alcoholic, perhaps you should be aware of the fact that detox is a medical emergency, and with 58 days' alleged clean time, this man is in no condition to deal with any kind of trauma or stress whatsoever.  Detox often entails a psychotic break with reality,  along with severe physical stress, as I'm sure you are aware.

 

Seeing that he has committed a murder,  I think it is irresponsible to have such a man, still detoxing, be confronted by angry and reproachful daughters.

 

It's not one of the 12 steps, or even the 13th, but one cornerstone of the 12 step programs is, No Big Changes in the First Year.

 

You're asking way too much of a murderer with 58 days' clean time. One can tell that he doesn't even begin to get what you're talking about -- he's blaming the murder on "the disease" -- as most people who are hijacked into rehab tend to do.

 

The other cornerstone of recovery, as per the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, is that anybody can get sober, except those "who are constitutionally unable to be honest with themselves."

 

And you can't know if you're one of those unfortunates unless you've been drug or alcohol free for at least a year. Some people say it takes three years until your spinal fluid is clean of biochemical changes due to addiction.

 

My experience, and that of many others who didn't drink and didn't die, is that you're really not clean and sober until you've had about 10 years of abstinence. At about 15 years of abstinence, you can begin your life as an adult.

 

We don't tell this to the amateurs because we don't want to discourage them.

 

But when you drag a murderer out of rehab and expose his innocent daughters to him, it is time to let some of the anonymous out of the alcoholics.

 

Let the pros handle this one, Dr. Phil. And tell those girls to get their tails into Al Anon and ACOA. Along with AA, ACOA has saved my life. It will save theirs, and their children's too.

 

 

 

and I respect your knowledge and I understand where you're coming from. But, I'm thinking that the show was more about what Erica needed than what Mark needed. I don't think it was about getting HIM in shape to come on the show. (That may not ever happen anyway) I grew up with both my parents in the home. My father was an abusive alchoholic. He was always mean to my mother. I spent years trying to defend my mother. My dad, to the end, was in denial about the way he had lived his. life. He said that he didn't drink that much.He said that he wasn't abusive. Even after my mother was diagnosed with metatastic breast cancer 4 years ago, he continued to be mean to her. One day when I was at their house, I overheard him saying something hateful to my mom. I walked into the kitchen and asked her what he'd said. She just sat there with her head down. Well, my dad said to me "This is my house and I'll do what I please.What are you going to do about it?" I looked at my mother and asked her" Can I tell him exactly what I think of him?" ( I had wanted to do this for all of my adult life, but my mom always begged me not to do it.) That day she said "Yes." I started out by telling him that I was not a little child any more and that I was no longer afraid of him. I told him that I was not going to allow him to mistreat my mother anymore. I told him everything that I had held inside for years. Surprisingly, I was very calm. Of course, he was saying all kinds of nasty hateful things to me.(Cussin' me up one side and down the other.) From then on he didn't mistreat my mother around my sister and me. I thought for sure that I'd feel guilty about doing that. I waited for the guilt to hit me like a brick wall. But, it never did. I felt cleansed. My dad was able to get passed it. He was later diagnosed with terminal cancer. My sister and I did what we could to care for them as long as we could. Toward the end I did make peace with my dad because I didn't want him to die with hard feelings between us. I also talked to him about God and he accepted God. (It's never too late, remember the thief on the Cross.) Anyway they are both gone now. Having shared all of this, what I'm getting at is ,I think Erica just needed to face her father. I don't think he needed to be clean and sober for the show. I would have understood if all she needed to do was just scream at him. Erica, you hang in there. Be very cautious and do what is best for you and your family.
 
February 2, 2007, 8:21 am CST

Counseling

Quote From: rosie52

and I respect your knowledge and I understand where you're coming from. But, I'm thinking that the show was more about what Erica needed than what Mark needed. I don't think it was about getting HIM in shape to come on the show. (That may not ever happen anyway) I grew up with both my parents in the home. My father was an abusive alchoholic. He was always mean to my mother. I spent years trying to defend my mother. My dad, to the end, was in denial about the way he had lived his. life. He said that he didn't drink that much.He said that he wasn't abusive. Even after my mother was diagnosed with metatastic breast cancer 4 years ago, he continued to be mean to her. One day when I was at their house, I overheard him saying something hateful to my mom. I walked into the kitchen and asked her what he'd said. She just sat there with her head down. Well, my dad said to me "This is my house and I'll do what I please.What are you going to do about it?" I looked at my mother and asked her" Can I tell him exactly what I think of him?" ( I had wanted to do this for all of my adult life, but my mom always begged me not to do it.) That day she said "Yes." I started out by telling him that I was not a little child any more and that I was no longer afraid of him. I told him that I was not going to allow him to mistreat my mother anymore. I told him everything that I had held inside for years. Surprisingly, I was very calm. Of course, he was saying all kinds of nasty hateful things to me.(Cussin' me up one side and down the other.) From then on he didn't mistreat my mother around my sister and me. I thought for sure that I'd feel guilty about doing that. I waited for the guilt to hit me like a brick wall. But, it never did. I felt cleansed. My dad was able to get passed it. He was later diagnosed with terminal cancer. My sister and I did what we could to care for them as long as we could. Toward the end I did make peace with my dad because I didn't want him to die with hard feelings between us. I also talked to him about God and he accepted God. (It's never too late, remember the thief on the Cross.) Anyway they are both gone now. Having shared all of this, what I'm getting at is ,I think Erica just needed to face her father. I don't think he needed to be clean and sober for the show. I would have understood if all she needed to do was just scream at him. Erica, you hang in there. Be very cautious and do what is best for you and your family.
Have these girls recieved Counseling because they  have a loot of hate in them
 
February 2, 2007, 8:22 am CST

Difficult Reunion for all

The past cannot be changed. Mark's apologies and explainations can only go so far to heal the damage. It's now up to Erica and Rachel to decide what to do with the anger, resentment and great sadness they must feel. Hopefully in time for their sake, they can heal enough to realize the human being behind the drug addict who did something unthinkable once and will forever live with the memory of his actions of that day. I sensed that Mark really seemed hopeful that somehow eventually he might have a relationship with his daughter(s). Perhaps in time, something will change their perspective of him but it will depend to a great deal on Mark and what he decides to do with himself from here on in.

To Mark if you are reading these boards: The best thing you can do is to concentrate on your own life. Work on the anger and resentment you obvious still deal with in your life and try and turn this negative into some kind of positive for yourself, the memory of your wife, and for your daughters, regardless of their decision to have you in their life. Take the words that your daughter spoke of, in realizing that you have a second chance to make a difference. Work toward the positive rather than allowing the memory of that tragic day to define who you will be from here on in. I believe you deserve some credit for showing up and participating in the process that brought you face to face with your daughters but you shouldn't view their decision not to have you in their life as a further sentence. Use the experience to turn your life around. I am sure Dr. Phil will be there to help if you really want it.

To Erica and Rachel: It took a lot of courage to face this situation, and in such a public way. I hope that you both will be able to one day let go of the anger, resentment and sadness if only to be able to realize all of your hopes and dreams and live your lives to the fullest.

 
February 2, 2007, 8:24 am CST

THE SOCIOPATH NEXT DOOR - RECOGNIZING THE REMORSELESS

How do we recognize the remorseless? One of their chief characteristics is a kind of glow or charisma that makes sociopaths more charming or interesting than the other people around them.  They’re more spontaneous, more intense, more complex or even sexier than everyone else, making them tricky to identify and leaving us easily seduced.

 

Fundamentally, sociopaths are different because they cannot love. Sociopaths learn early on to show sham emotion, but underneath they are indifferent to others’ suffering. Some of favorite reads on the subject: 

 

The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout OR Without Conscience:  The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Amoung Us by Robert Hare OR Aggression in Personality Disorders and Perversions by Otto Kernberg 

 

Emotional Blackmail:  When the People in Your Life Use Fear, Obligation and Guilt to Manipulate You by Susan Forward  

 

Why is it Always About You?:  The Seven Deadly Sins of Narcissism by Sandy Hotchkiss

 

They live to dominate and thrive for the thrill to win.  We all almost certainly know at least one or more sociopaths already.

 

Hope it helps! 

 

 
February 2, 2007, 9:31 am CST

02/01 A Difficult Reunion – Part 1

Quote From: kasmit

EXACTLY!!
You must be kidding!  He was all about making himself a victim.  HE has a terrible disease - drug addiction, HE has spent twenty years in prison- so has everyone else he damaged,for life, HE went to recovery(courtesy of Dr. Phil) after being clean (so he says) for twenty years in prison-what "free" counseling services were offered to the real victims of this crime while growing up and trying to go on with their lives?  After all, when was a human life deemed to be worth only twenty years or so in prison?
 
February 2, 2007, 10:33 am CST

Oh, please!

Quote From: jacksmompam

This is a terrible situation.  But for all of you bible thumpers out there... And I am a believer too... Judge not lest thee be judged.  Let God do the forgiving and the sorting the bad guys from the good.  And for most of you saying Drugs didn't do it, he did.... Obviously none of you have ever been near someone jacked up on meth, horse or coke.  You  have no idea of which you speak.  You my friend,  are the first person to say what I'd been thinking all day.  Mom played a huge part in this tragic situation.  I hope all heal.  It's a really sad story.  My question to phil is .... how come there is no mention about the mom's possible involvement in drugs?  Maybe she was clean, but I find it odd, it never came up on the show.  And if she was clean, what was she doing with babies around someone so messed up.  I

What is it going to take to get some people past the "blame the victim" mentality? 

 

Her "part in it"?  This wasn't the gunfight at the OK Corral, to my knowledge.  They weren't standing in the yard having a shootout.  The man brutally gunned her down in front of her children.

 

I don't care if she smoked crack, shot heroin or took pills.  She didn't DESERVE to die like that. 

 
February 2, 2007, 11:50 am CST

02/01 A Difficult Reunion – Part 1

Quote From: lyninsocal

What is it going to take to get some people past the "blame the victim" mentality? 

 

Her "part in it"?  This wasn't the gunfight at the OK Corral, to my knowledge.  They weren't standing in the yard having a shootout.  The man brutally gunned her down in front of her children.

 

I don't care if she smoked crack, shot heroin or took pills.  She didn't DESERVE to die like that. 

i thought mark was the one on drugs? but i can tell you from hands on experance, drugs will make a person not think about what there doing, i know drugs made me try to defend myself with a knife aganst a bow and arrow fron long range! and i can promice you i came out on the lousing end of that fight!  had i not been on drugs i would have had better scense to do that dumb as hell thing i did, and beleive me i was stupid as hell to even try to defend my self that way! and that wasnt enough stupidity on my part even with a bear hunting arrow sticking out of my gut i went home and did something even more stupid, hell i pulled the damn thing out my self, i didnt know it was almost completely through me, had i not been on drugs i would have left that damn think where it were after ripping my guts to shreads with the first attempt to remove it but drugs had a damn good grip on my pain threshold, it took me 2 very hard pulls to remove it, in my mind i thought if i only got it out it would stop hurting, damn the things drugs will leed your mind to think, but atleast i had enough scense to dial 911 to ask for an ambulance, 2which the 911 opperaror told me she would not send till i could tell her my name, wow that sounds easy enough to do but guess what? at that point i had no idea who in the hell i even was, my own damn name i couldnt remember at that point, again wow the things damn drugs will do to your mind, the last think i remembered telling the 911 opperator was [ well f--k  it i guess i lay down here and just go ahead and die, little did i know that god wasnt about to allow that to happen, all things happen for a reason this i learned, god had a reason for this to happen to me just the way it happened,it brought a man to god who let every one know he did not beleive in god, it made me change my life i forgave the guy that shot me and he forgave me for making him shoot me,he married my sister and they have two beautiful girls, i have a son i would have never had if this haddent happened to me, and it got my life back on the path to god which i had long lost sight of, i learned to question not what god has chosen for us even if it is to leave this life in a way we dont like, he has his reasons for letting us do stupid things, but he also forgives us when we chouse to do something no matter how stupid it seems to be, and trust me i could think of alot better way for god to get my attetion, but he knew  what needed to happen i look back now and can see he tryied to get my attention many times over but i wasnt paying attention to him, but most of all he allowed me to live to do stupid things again, i just pray that i never again do any thing as stupid as i did that night 19 years ago, and i thank god i lived to tell my tell,and i thank him i live a drug free life now and i thank god for allowing my heart to forgive my would be killer as i have done, it allowed me to heal.
 
February 2, 2007, 12:24 pm CST

Thank you Robin

I am currently watching the second episode to this horrible conflict and I just wanted to say Thank you to Robin for the conversation she had with Rachel and Erica on the steps. At least someone noticed the work that Mark has put into this and said it out loud.

 

If I was Mark, I would have walked away also. It has nothing to do with "it's all he knows." He was being torn apart in front of the stage audience and national audience and discredited completely. By walking away he was standing up for himself.

 

I can understand the anger and hatred on the behalf of the family, but all this is is revenge on national tv. Nobody in that family has the intention of doing anything with him but make him feel awful. 

 
February 2, 2007, 1:40 pm CST

you must be kidding

Quote From: jdinterest

You must be kidding!  He was all about making himself a victim.  HE has a terrible disease - drug addiction, HE has spent twenty years in prison- so has everyone else he damaged,for life, HE went to recovery(courtesy of Dr. Phil) after being clean (so he says) for twenty years in prison-what "free" counseling services were offered to the real victims of this crime while growing up and trying to go on with their lives?  After all, when was a human life deemed to be worth only twenty years or so in prison?

Have you ever had a drug or alcohol

 addiction?  Obviously not!  A human life should not have been taking  by another, , NO but this life cannot be brought back no matter what is said or done.  Do you really think this man wanted that?  I don't think he did because of the the appearance he made of National TV to tell the entire world what a horrific thing he did.  As far as the drug thing after jail time, what else could kill his pain of never knowing his family?  Not an excuse but if I were in that position, I might do the same.  I am not a drug or alcohol addict or recovery but I lived with one for almost 20 years.

 
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