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Topic : 06/08 Mind Control?

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Created on : Friday, October 31, 2008, 04:13:15 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
(Original Air Date: 11/05/08) It’s hard to believe, but in America alone, there may be as many as 5,000 religious groups preying upon the weak and vulnerable, and all in the name of God. Dr. Phil’s guests have warnings for you and your children. Seeta says when her 18-year-old daughter joined a religious group called 1 Mind Ministries, she left home with her 7-month-old son and never returned. Soon afterward, Seeta received the horrifying news that her grandson was found dead and her daughter was being charged with murder. Learn the disturbing details of this case and why Seeta says her daughter is innocent. Then, meet Norman, a college-educated husband and father who moved his family hundreds of miles to join a religious group that came with a price he says he never expected. Norman says he was enticed to join the House of Yahweh because of his strong desire to be part of a group. The House of Yahweh is a mysterious organization out of Abilene, Texas, led by Yisrayl Hawkins, a man who some say has more than 30 wives. As Norman and his family prepared for the end of the world, as Yisrayl Hawkins preached, Norman says he eventually realized why they were selected to join the group. You won’t believe the reason he gives! Then, meet a former wife of Yisrayl Hawkins, and learn the warning signs of mind control. Talk about the show here.

Find out what happened on the show.

As of January, 2009, this message board will become "Read Only" and will be closed to further posting. Please join the NEW Dr. Phil Community to continue your discussions, personalize your message board experience, start a blog and meet new friends.

November 10, 2008, 9:03 am CST

the Witness'

Quote From: drmel46

I take it you were never "baptized into" the JW cult, eh?  That is when they start changing all the rules, trust me, I know.  My dad thought they were "normal" as well until he got baptized in.....and then they started asking for handouts.....and trust me, plenty of them had their hands out!  He told me a couple of years ago that the JW's have caused him more trouble than anything ever has (and he has been through a lot, especially physically.)  I really thought he was going to say something like his sugar diabetes, heart trouble, bad knees, or something to that effect, but no.....he said the JW's.  But he also said "You can't just quit!"  For some reason he is deathly afraid of leaving the cult and he has never been afraid of anything in his life.  He is now 78 years old, bedridden, and suffers from Alzheimer's, although I think a lot of the problem with his memory is directly related to the cult he is in.  Please, please research the roots of the Jehovah's Witnesses and check out some of the websites out there pertaining to the child abuse that goes on in the organization.  They run the Catholics down about their pedophile priests and all, but never once do they mention that there have been over 23,000 cases of child sex abuse reported among the JW's (since 2001, I think.)  Please check that information for yourself on the Silentlambs website.

Hope you have a great weekend and be blessed!

thanks for your sweet reply, but certainly I have heard all this before, I could say the same as your Dad, the JW's have caused me problems too, when anyone hears you like the Witness' they act like you are a nut.  Try giving up Easter sometime,   I actually had a friend bring me a tape series on how to get "out", she said I was at level 5 of the cult process...it was really funny, although somewhat insulting, so I choose to ignore it and this friend did not come around me again for a year, so who's shunning who?   

 

I studied with them weekly for about 7 years, then moved, stay in touch with my wonderful Helga (a teacher) but never joined up or anything.  Really like the way they approach the "word", original Hebrew definitions can help you understand scripture...I still attend the "memorial service" annually.  Kingdom Halls are nice and simple, not intimadating, they have no worship tools like crosses or rosaries or golden calves,  On the local level there are no salaries paid out, that's amazing.  Perhaps I was involved with a less radical congregation but I sure like them.  I'm awfully sorry to hear your Dad's predicament, I hope he will find a solution. 

Love, Luanne  

   

 
November 10, 2008, 9:26 am CST

11/05 Mind Control?

Quote From: jewelsf

  I have always wondered why people are drawn into cults that already have a life of stability. I can understand how someone who is vulnerable, homeless, on drugs or what have you can fall prey. But how does someone who is not in that position happily sign their life, marriage, and all worldly goods away to live in a commune without the benefit of being able to think and act for themselves? They are stripped of everything, including their spouse if they are married and forced to live under the rule of one man who claims to be their Saviour. I am a Christian but I would certainly know better than to fall into this kind of trap. To me it's just plain old common sense.

Christianity itself is a cult.    I appreciate you expressing amazement that others can be lured into cults, but truly it is merely a matter of degrees.    Anyone who wants a cut of your hard-earned money, but lives better than you, and who does not himself/herself have a true job outside of being paid from others parting with their wages...that's a cult.  

 

I'm glad to be free from all of it.   And I hope more and more people see through the crap and get their lives and minds back.   If it's religious, it's a cult.

 
November 10, 2008, 9:49 am CST

11/05 Mind Control?

Quote From: efffy_

I don't think it could happen to everyone. There seems to be some flaw in the people it does happen to. I know you could talk until you are blue in the face and I will never believe in a divine being of any sort.

Research has yet to show that there is any flaw in people who are recruited into cults. People do not just go and join cults. Usually they join or become affiliated with front groups that look normal. I was recruited in this way to a group called the National Labor Federation (Natlfed)/ Provisional Communist Party when I was 18. It is a left-political cult, not a religious cult.

 

In 1979, after high school, I decided to volunteered full-time with a group that said they tried to provide health care for migrant farm workers on Long Island, the Coalition of Concerned Medical Professionals (CCMP). It turned out to be a front group. Natlfed has numerous organizations claiming to provide services and organize low income workers around the country. They actually do work in the community and this is how most people become affiliated with them. They had a very deliberate, manipulative, and deceptive recruitment process for members. I ended up working 7 days a week, 16 hours a day, with very little sleep for the next 14 ½ years.

 

When someone volunteered with CCMP or any of the Natlfed front groups, information about their background, interests, political views, arrests, etc. is solicited from them. Some of this is formal while filling out what’s called a Volunteer Information Sheet (VIS), and some is informal – their team member on a neighborhood canvass to reach out to low income workers may initiate a conversation. All of this information is reported back to the person in charge of recruitment and the volunteer’s next encounter is planned. If the volunteer has a disagreement with the group’s political position, a conversation on why they’re right is planned. It may be formal, it may be informal. For instance, in the field of equal justice for the poor, if you think that legal service organizations are the best way to address the lack of affordable legal services, they will have someone talk about the failures of legal service organizations in the past and why what their group is supposedly doing is better.

 

The process has a deliberate progression. It is called TVTV for tab volunteer, viable volunteer, tab cadre, viable cadre. First they want to get your agreement that there is a problem and that you will be part of the solution by making a scheduled time commitment. Then they work on getting you to agree that all other efforts are doomed to failure and that the only way to solve inequalities in the country is through a revolution. At that point they tell you that that is their real goal and ask you to expand your schedule to learn more about this. Then they start teaching you their doctrine that in a nutshell is that socialist revolution is the answer. The way to make this revolution is to organize unrecognized workers in the US into mutual benefit associations. That a revolutionary situation will eventually arise in the US (like during the Vietnam War) and the communities will turn to them for leadership and they will take power. Eventually they ask you to cut all ties with everyone else to commit your whole life to making the revolution as the only solution to all the world’s problems.

 

Most people if presented this at the beginning would not voluntarily give their life up to the movement. But, when done as a process, with each encounter planned, with each objection worked on whenever they see you, some do. Most people are responding to emotional and social influences – not the rational basis for the group. People are befriended, they are told they’re special, there is an easy black and white answer for all the world’s problem, there is an us and them, there is a promise that they’ll end up someone important running the country. Then when you add in that their whole existence becomes centered in the group as well as their entire support system, the rational basis for the work doesn’t matter that much. The full-time organizers seem like dedicated sincere people, and for the most part they are.

 

Granted most people won’t become full-time. It is more a matter of where someone is in their life, rather than who they are or having backbone. What statistics there are seem to indicate that if anything, members of high demand groups like this are more intelligent than the average population. If someone begins going through a transition period, like finishing school and having to get a job, a divorce, or losing a job, they are much more vulnerable to groups like this. They are not grounded and having a support system and easy answers becomes very appealing. I saw part-time people who went through divorce, befriended by the organizers and recruited within a couple of weeks as full-time people.

 

Once a person is full-time they commit to a military discipline because they think this is necessary to build a revolution. The group is highly centralized and subordinates must follow orders of ordinates. People are regularly screamed at and demeaned and they feel they must take it to maintain discipline. At times there has been physical abuse and sexual abuse as well. The people are cut-off from any other support system and increased abuse becomes more and more possible and probable.

 

You can google this group and there is a lot more information on line. There is a wikipedia article on National Labor Federation and an essay at:
http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/index.php/Criticism_of_NATLFED.

 

I think that most cults work like this, religious and non-religious. Perhaps this example will shed some light on how intelligent people with no "flaw" are recruited into cults.

 

 
November 10, 2008, 4:49 pm CST

Many counterfeit Christs

 I was in a certain well-known, large, Protestant "church" in San Jose, CA for 6 years.  I spent the last 3 years looking for a way out.  We had been taught so much about "church hopping" being the wrong thing to do when you were dissatisfied with their program, that I felt a sense of guilt whenever I'd try out a different place to get away from there.
  A former member of that church had invited me to visit some of the classes at the smaller place she'd transferred to.  Thank, God, I never did attend one of their Sunday "services", which had to have been Loud Jam Sessions, considering how loud they got in the various classes I went to.  I saw their sound equipment, and stayed away from their regular services because of it.
  After one of their sessions, someone from this place paired off with me and asked me what my prayer needs were.  I told her of some things that took place earlly in my life, and got emotional in the process.  The next thing I knew, she had called over about 6 or 7 other people.  One of them asked me to get down on the floor.  I had no idea what they were planning, and the person who invited me there had left because she had to get up early in the morning.  She thought I was safe in there, or she would have stayed longer.
  As soon as I was on the floor, I heard someone say, "You'd better get her feet."  One guy grabbed both my ankles and held them down; the rest pinned me on both sides and on both shoulders.  They then spent several hours asking me questions, all of which were answered truthfully.  Each time I answered, I was met with one or the other of these people saying, "Shut up, demon, we're not talking to you!"  Whenever I tried to get up, all of them would lean forward with extra strength and keep me down.  They asked me a lot of things: Did I have a boyfriend?  Did I have a girlfriend?  Why did I hate men so much?.  Anything they could think of, they'd try out.  They didn't like my answers - nothing matched what they were "sure" they'd been "told" by the Holy Spirit.  One lady kept rubbing her hand in circles on my upper thigh, which drove me nuts.  I would try to wrench away from them even more when that happened, and they continued to pin me.  Another kept rolling her knuckles in my throat as if trying to get me to throw up a demon.  I had bruised spots for three days.
   When it got close to one a.m. my right arm had gone stiff because the Knuckle Lady had gotten tired of holding me down with her hand, so she hiked up her leg and knelt on me.  It was only then that I got a mental picture of Christ on the cross, and realized his arms were probably stiff too.  After that, I continued to repeat in my head, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."  As I focused on that, they must have noticed that I'd stopped struggling, and figured they won.  Later, when their pastor found out, he was furious, and gave permission to the lady who invited me to give me his home phone number.  He couldn't stop apologizing to me, and I could almost see him squirming on the other end as I related the details to him.
  I went back to my regular church for a little less than four years after that.  Finally one year at their women's retreat, which I had attended every year I was there, I got one too many attacks from the Slime Patrol, a.k.a. "ministry team".  A lady cornered me in a chair and repeatedly accused me of voodoo and blasphemy.  This also went on for several hours.  I may have been able to break free from this one, but I was afraid they'd have me on the floor just like the other guys did.  Their reasons for getting me this time had to do with the fact that :
1. Richard Roberts, son of Oral Roberts, had recently visited our "church" and had turned a number of people on to the phenomenon of "holy laughter".  I had heard a lot about this, and refused to get involved.  But the director of the retreat decided to get us into it one night, and I left to go back to my room.  Someone came after me and wouldn't stop urging me to come back in for prayer, which I didn't need, but many of the others did.
2. A man who had been banned by our pastor from minisering with us, was invited, unbeknownst to the director, to show up at our retreat and just get his own room outside of our group.  That way he could drop in without registering with us.  I think he was the one who got this lady to run out after me.  She started out suggesting that I come in, and somehow I knew exactly who she wanted to take me to.  I told her there were two people in there that I wouldn't get near, and she named exactly those two!  I knew they were followers of Kenneth Copeland and Jerry Sevelle, both heretical teachers.  The lady didn't give up, and mentioned someone else.  I thought this person might do something   quick with me and let me go.  No such luck.  First the guy who wasn't supposed to be there came over and put ridiculous notions into this lady's head.  Then, realizing that he'd done too much, he left me with her, and she ran with his lies.
  I have been with the Eastern Orthodox Church since 1995.  They are the original, and therefore only true Christians.  All other groups were founded in rebellion against the Orthodox by people who thought they had the right, authority or even ability to change the Truth.  The fact is, the Truth cannot change, and rebellion is classed in 1 Samuel as witchcraft.  There is no difference between people thinking they can change the Laws of God and Lucifer trying to exalt himself above God.  Strange that they never told us that the word "Protestant" literally means, "Protest" + "-ant".  Maybe they don't know, but they're misleading a lot of people with the notion that they're following Christ.  The Roman Catholics were also founded against Orthodoxy and the current ones don't even know it.  This is not opinion or belief, but historical fact.  There cannot be a Christian outside of Eastern Orthodoxy.
 
November 11, 2008, 3:21 am CST

Well gee, I'm glad you told me.................

Quote From: meme22

Christianity itself is a cult.    I appreciate you expressing amazement that others can be lured into cults, but truly it is merely a matter of degrees.    Anyone who wants a cut of your hard-earned money, but lives better than you, and who does not himself/herself have a true job outside of being paid from others parting with their wages...that's a cult.  

 

I'm glad to be free from all of it.   And I hope more and more people see through the crap and get their lives and minds back.   If it's religious, it's a cult.

I'm so happy that I found out that all religions are cults before I said another prayer and got myself in any further. Good grief, I feel that anyone who chooses to not not believe has that right and I do NOT judge them. But it's funny that someone who is an atheist is always trying to shove their own beliefs down my throat. I live in a free country where I have the right to believe as I choose. And let me tell you a little known fact that I would assume that you are unaware of. Wars have been fought over, and millions of men have died over religion. Too bad you weren't there to tell them it was over a cult!
 
November 11, 2008, 3:25 am CST

Another point!

Quote From: meme22

Christianity itself is a cult.    I appreciate you expressing amazement that others can be lured into cults, but truly it is merely a matter of degrees.    Anyone who wants a cut of your hard-earned money, but lives better than you, and who does not himself/herself have a true job outside of being paid from others parting with their wages...that's a cult.  

 

I'm glad to be free from all of it.   And I hope more and more people see through the crap and get their lives and minds back.   If it's religious, it's a cult.

"Anyone who wants a cut of your hard earned money, but lives better than you, and who does not himself/herself have a true job outside of being paid from others parting with their wages......" Funny, you just described a few doctors that I know!
 
November 11, 2008, 3:36 am CST

Mine aren't hate filled.................

Quote From: meme22

Gramipam,

 

I escaped the WCG myself almost 15 years ago.  I defied the odds that people who submit to the mind control of high demand religious institutions don't leave once they've been immersed for 5 years or more. 

 

Actually, I reclaimed my mind by inches, thinking that other "mainstream" churches were healthy too.  But, I've found that all churches, including professing Christian mainstream ones, all use mind control.  Think about it (no irony intended).  We work in the real world, making an honest living to be productive members of society and take care of ourselves and our loved ones.   And then some nicely-dressed, bible-thumper says you need to give over some of your salary to pay his salary because God says so?  Come on!  Pastors and religious workers earn their living off of convincing you to part with some of yours.  That's all they do.  Period.  It's pathological.  But in the eyes of society, this is legitmate--but it's still mind control.

 

Churches, ministries, pastors, you name it.  They're all a crock--every last one of them.  And they need us more than we need them--to pay for their salaries and their lifestyles that almost always far exceed that of the normal, hapless church member.  People are truly dumb sheep. 

 

I'm am glad to be done with all of the nonsense, even though I did have to get out of it by inches, as I mentioned.  I own my own mind, my own wages and my own life.  I wish nobody any ill, nor do I judge for there but for the grace of my own critical thinking skills would I still be.  The truth did set me free...and that truth is that all religions are about mind control to one degree or another.  And I'm sure I'll get the hate-filled replies from those who are under such mind-control to further make my point.  :-) 

I just happen to feel that you have a very large and bitter chip on your shoulder. I don't happen to belong to a church but I do still consider myself to be a Christian. There is no mind control involved here. I happen to use my "own" mind, which is strong and intelligent. But I do remember when I was young I did happen to belong to the Baptist church and they did NOT live better than anyone I know. They lived a very simple life in a small and simple home. Maybe things have changed over the years, I don't know since I don't currently belong. I will say this though, if I did belong to a church and the minister drove nicer cars, lived in a nicer home, etc. then I would probably find another church. When that happens maybe the parishioner's should be taking a closer look at the books?
 
November 11, 2008, 3:41 am CST

Forgot something!

Quote From: meme22

Gramipam,

 

I escaped the WCG myself almost 15 years ago.  I defied the odds that people who submit to the mind control of high demand religious institutions don't leave once they've been immersed for 5 years or more. 

 

Actually, I reclaimed my mind by inches, thinking that other "mainstream" churches were healthy too.  But, I've found that all churches, including professing Christian mainstream ones, all use mind control.  Think about it (no irony intended).  We work in the real world, making an honest living to be productive members of society and take care of ourselves and our loved ones.   And then some nicely-dressed, bible-thumper says you need to give over some of your salary to pay his salary because God says so?  Come on!  Pastors and religious workers earn their living off of convincing you to part with some of yours.  That's all they do.  Period.  It's pathological.  But in the eyes of society, this is legitmate--but it's still mind control.

 

Churches, ministries, pastors, you name it.  They're all a crock--every last one of them.  And they need us more than we need them--to pay for their salaries and their lifestyles that almost always far exceed that of the normal, hapless church member.  People are truly dumb sheep. 

 

I'm am glad to be done with all of the nonsense, even though I did have to get out of it by inches, as I mentioned.  I own my own mind, my own wages and my own life.  I wish nobody any ill, nor do I judge for there but for the grace of my own critical thinking skills would I still be.  The truth did set me free...and that truth is that all religions are about mind control to one degree or another.  And I'm sure I'll get the hate-filled replies from those who are under such mind-control to further make my point.  :-) 

You would probably get further in your arguments if you didn't call people "dumb sheep". Once you start on the offensive there really isn't any other way for someone else to reply to you except for being on the defensive. I've noticed that many people tend to make a good argument only to spoil it by using terms such as that, it lessens your credibility.
 
November 11, 2008, 3:52 am CST

Such a tragedy...................

Quote From: jemella

when i read your message this morning i cried as i have a son who was held against his will, brainwashed, physically and sexually abused by a group who were supposed to be giving him rehabilitation after a car accident. mandatory by the insurance company. It took me eight months to find my son, he was living in squalor and filth. I took him home but sadly the damage was done and at the time this most important issue was not talked about. I did everything in my power legally to protect my son I gave him loving care when I got him home but not knowing that he should have had some serious counselling as I am realizing now one night he went out and he never returned. Everything in his apt. was as he left it. I know my son was picked up that night by one of these members and they have taken hime somewhere just as they did before. It has been ten years now since he disappeared and nothing has been done to even look for him only what i have attempted to do and finally my finances have run out and believe it or not i am still battling with the insurance company for the settlement. I hear they call it the file that never goes away. I will never give up on this fight until I have justice for my son his brother and myself. We must speak up about the things that matter, or what is our life truly worth. I am glad you are home and safe. take care  Lets all do what we can to put an end to the abuse of our most vulnerable in society.

I'm really sorry to hear about your son. I can't imagine what it would be like to not know what has happened to a loved one, especially a child. My husband and I lost a son, my stepson, in a horrible car accident when he was 20. No one that has never gone through something such as this can ever really understand just how truly painful it is. I wish you my best.

Jewels

 
November 11, 2008, 4:03 am CST

She was just a ........................

Quote From: manofgoods

I know that I would never join a cult at anything that does brainwashing. I don't know if you're reading this, but I feel terible for your friend & her sons & I hope that they can find healing within themselves. Perhaps she was very gullible to have her husband walk out on them. I believe that he needs to be there for his children.

Dear Manofgoods,

  My friend was just a normal working wife and mother, then one day her husband asked for a separation. She didn't want it but she couldn't force him to stay either. The next thing she knew before they had even filed for divorce, was that he had already married another, younger, illegal alien from Mexico, who was pregnant with his child. Wouldn't that be a shock? Thank you for your empathy as she does deserve it. This woman's self esteem really hit the dirt when this happened and she has never really been able to bring back her own self confidence. She does have a good job with benefits and is doing well with her sons. But yes, her boys, who are teens need their father in their life no matter what. This was really hard on all of them, excluding the husband.

 
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