Topic : 06/06 "I'm Gay, OK?"
(Original Air Date: 10/19/05) Sexual orientation used to be something kept hidden from family and co-workers, but now more and more people are "coming out" and finding acceptance. Anjela says her mother and sister don't support her sexual orientation, and feel she can't be Christian and gay at the same time. Can they reconcile this touchy issue? Then, two men debate whether a person can go from gay to straight, and parents of a 4-year-old boy fear their son's desire to play with dolls and wear heels means he'll grow up to be gay. Are they overreacting to his wishes to be a princess instead of a prince? Talk about gender and gay issues here.
Find out what happened on the show.
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October 21, 2005, 3:44 pm PDT
 Quote From: mommyjenna Thank you for being willing to discuss this. How about Romans 1:24-32 I don't have much more time tonight but I'll eventually come back for your response. Romans has already been discussed but this is what I had to say... (or something like this :)
Romans 1:21-31 The key to this scripture is the word "natural". In these versus we see that there is a group of people who turn away from God. From this point on their lives begin to spiral downward and they commit all sorts of sins. One of which is turning from what is “natural” for them to that which is “unnatural”.
The issue here revolves around the word “natural” which is derived from two Greek words phusikos (Strong's #5446) and phusis (Strong's #5449). These words literally mean that which is a persons "natural disposition" and something that comes "instinctively" to them. In other words, it is who you are naturally; without reprogramming, counseling, or any other form of behavioral modification that attempts to change your behavior to that which society has deemed acceptable.
You ask any gay person what their natural sexual orientation is and they won’t even hesitate to tell you that being gay is. The problem is of course when you discuss the issue with a heterosexual person. Unfortunately many times people who belong to the majority tend to think of themselves as the ‘norm’ and therefore what is ‘natural’. Everyone else falls into another category altogether and in some cases is considered even slightly abnormal.
This point was illustrated best to me by a story my Grandmother used to tell me. In her day all the children were expected to be right handed. Anything else was considered slightly abnormal and therefore undesirable. Because of this if children showed a natural propensity to use their left hand they were repeatedly encouraged and then required to use their right hand. It wasn’t until years later when they realized that roughly ten percent of all children were naturally left handed that there were calls for this practice to stop. In spite of this, some time passed before the more forward thinking schools allowed left handed children to be who they were naturally without attempting to change their writing habits. Now day’s left-handed children are seen as just another everyday variation.
Our sexual orientation is no different. The vast majority of our population is predominately heterosexual in nature (approx. 90-95%) with the remaining minority being homosexual (approx. 5-10%). Researchers have found that these percentages remain pretty much the same across all racial and cultural lines. Varying only by the amount of tolerance or intolerance a particular society has for such differences.
Another key point in Paul’s story is that the people turned away from God FIRST and THEN began living a sinful ‘lifestyle’. If homosexuality is a sin. By this description we should see that every homosexual person first turned away from God and THEN became a homosexual. Yet I’ve seen everything but. I’ve met numerous Christians who were gay. Some were saved before they came to grips with their sexuality. Some were saved after they “came out”. There is no common denominator. I can only conclude that ones sexual orientation has nothing to do with ones relationship with God.
Another important point to keep in mind is what Jesus taught us concerning those who have ‘fallen away’ from God. That being that those who are separated from God will envariably exhibit the full gambit of bad spiritual “fruit” in keeping with who they serve. Jesus said that “a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.” (Matthew 7:18) Therefore “by their fruits you will know them.” (Matthew 7:20)
When I met my first Christian gay woman I knew something was a miss with the Church’s doctrine concerning homosexuals. Here standing before me was a person who professed Jesus Christ as their lord and savior and exhibited in their life the full plethoria of “good fruit” that Paul described in Galatians 5:22-23. How could this be? According to Jesus good fruit could not be produced on such a “bad tree”. If homosexuality was a terrible sin that separated us from God it was physically and spiritually impossible for this woman to be standing before me and yet she was.
Only one conclusion remained. That being that ones sexual orientation was not, in and of itself, a sin. It was instead just another variation in God’s grand scheme of diversity and as such we should not reject it merely because it was different.
There is a much better discussion of Romans on the web site www.gaychurch.org. Check out the section titled "Gay and Christian?" I think it will help you. :)
What do you want to discuss next? Since we're in the New Testament how about 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 & 1 Timothy 1:9-10? |
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October 21, 2005, 3:52 pm PDT
Quote From: tulseyjoe There is absolutely no scripture in the Old Testament nor the New Testament which literally mentions what we in modern times would consider to be sexual activity by those who are exclusively homosexual. In the 3 chapters of the Bible which literally mention same-gender sexual activity, the situation is the pagan worship of fertility gods and/or goddesses by heterosexuals who have gone to a pagan temple or other place of worship to make a sacrifice of male "seed" to the false gods to insure more human offspring by those heterosexuals in relationship with women.
One must read Leviticus chapters 18 through 20 in complete context where the Israelites are told not to follow the cultural/religious practices of the Canaanites which includes the worship of Asherah, aka Astarte, the Canaanite fertility goddess, and her male co-hort, Ba'al, aka Milcom or Molech (both words mean "king"). A male holy (Kodesh) person serving the goddess or god in that situation was called a "sodomite" elsewhere in the bible. "Kodesh" the word mistranslated as "sodomite" (in other Bible books) is literally a "holy" (person, place, or thing) in the Hebrew Language.
Often this holy person representing the goddess Asherah would dress up in female drag and the male (definitely hetersosexual) would have sex with the male holy person and in the worshipper's mind and spirit, it was as if he was having sex with the goddess herself and not with a male at all.
The only other place in the Bible where same-gender sexual activity is condemned is in Romans Chapter 1, In that chapter, the context where that takes place is also in a pagan fertility temple.
To some ignorant right-wing Bible-thumpers, there is only one sin in that chapter; but, the real truth is that at the end of the chapter there is a whole list of other sins which those "thumpers" are guilty of themselves. But, they act like those don't exist.
Added note here: I did graduate work in theology at Oral Roberts University in the latter 1970s. The Roberts family and the university is in denial of the fact that Oral and Evelyn Roberts' first born son, Ronald Oral Roberts, left the closet after I went to ORU and he openly admitted to several people I knew that he was gay. Troy Perry, founder of the MCC denomination, wrote about Ronald in one of his books. A former local MCC pastor here in Tulsa told me that Ron and she were friends and that he definitely was gay. 1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God: do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitues nor homosexual offenders. NIV Besides the Bible doesn't have to mention the word homosexuality. Sometimes it say's man should not lay with another man. Also, it pretty easy to see God's plan for man. To be with one women and to reproduce. The thing is, God doesn't like any type of sexual immorality. He also doesn't like for us to put anything or any one before him. Anjela on the show appeared to live and breathe sex. |
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October 21, 2005, 3:57 pm PDT
Quote From: lzj4v6 I always thought good Christians didn't judge others...granted I wasn't raised attending church but I do beleive in GOD...I just think that a lot of christians preach but don't practice what they preach...
I have three small children and I will teach them to be accepting of others whether they are black, white, asian, purple, green, pink , gay or straight...isn't that what makes the world go round...DIVERSITY...
I have a lot of gay friends and they are probably the most wonderful, caring, non-judgemental people you will ever meet and yet everyday for them they encounter mean spirited and judgemental individuals...do you think that is easy for them...is it the life you would CHOOSE?...I doubt it...but the fact of the matter is they are who they are and they deserve love and acceptance the same as anyone else...have you ever stopped to think that they have feeling also that can be hurt just as easily as yours?...walk a day in their shoes and maybe you would understand...
Read 1 Cor Ch 5. You'll see it says that it is ok for believers, (members of the body of Christ, the Church) to judge other members of the Church body. But 1cor5:12 says, What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you. If you want to teach your children biblical examples, join a non-denominational Bible Based church. |
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October 21, 2005, 4:02 pm PDT
Quote From: rlanthier Whatever is clear in the Bible, it is not that homosexuality is a sin. Jesus himself did not condemn it which, considering the fiery condemnations it is given by self-proclaimed Bible Christians, is very unclear. In the New Testament the only reference is Romans I which I have explained elsewhere referes to heterosexual men, not homosexuals.
Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13 appears to condemn male homosexual behavior, but in fact only refers to temple prostitution. Even if it did refer to lesbian and gay relationships, it would not be applicable to Christians today, any more than are the other 613 laws which make up the Jewish Holiness Code. It is less than genuine for a Christian teleminister or theologian to imply that these verses are still valid for the beliefs and conduct of Christians, while stating that the remaining laws of the Holiness Code are not applicable.
Be very careful when accepting your translations as 'clear' and definitive. Bible scholars are not so clearly in agreement. |
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October 21, 2005, 4:17 pm PDT
Quote From: mommyjenna Yes I did. It wasn't directed at me and I skimmed over it and made this quick observation which I thought was ironic. Very quickly, in response, it is sad there is so much 'shame' here as you have experienced. But again, those lies can pile up. Every suicide begins with shameful or bad thoughts that continue. What kind of organization do you work for, btw? I may have time later to address that other post later but I'm quickly running out of time here. About the stats on homosexual/heterosexual abuse, I did do a quick search and this is the first one I found. The study was done by the American Journal of Public Health. Thousands were surveyed here. You can find the link at http::www.narth.com/docs/domestic.html At the bottom of the page is the link to the study. Here a case worker was pouring out her heart saying that she had to work with too many kids who were emotionally scarred by intolerance of Christians. Kids who attempted suicide and had been shunned by their parents. Your comment that "every suicide begins with shameful or bad thoughts that continue" and then building on that to say that basically - these kids were getting what was 'due' them because of their "bad thoughts" towards members of their own sex. UNBELIEVABLE!
With such hard hearted and calloused attitudes no wonder so many in the world have turned away from Christ! How can we tell them God loves them when 1/2 of the Christian world hates them? Oh 'they' say they "love the sinner" but "hate the sin" - but then they proceed to classify everything that isn't like them to be a sin!
This issue is not the first time.
Shall I go on? Here is the Gospel of liberation, peace, love and justice. Used for what? To attack, kill and destroy the very people who would find Christ! What would Jesus say? Would He exclude any from His kingdom? Do you, and others like you, know the harm you doing the Body of Christ by your close minded intolerance? This woman is screaming out - "Stop the madness! Lives are at stake!!!" and 1/2 the church blissfully goes on as if they are not to blame. That somehow, someway... it's those "bad" people thinking those "bad" thoughts that got them into all of this. My heart aches and cries for the opportunities that are lost and the lives that have been lost to such thinking!
Thank God!! the church is changing now though and there are over 3,500+ Christian churches from ALL denominations that have thrown their doors open to the gay community! Praise God things ARE changing!
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October 21, 2005, 4:28 pm PDT
Quote From: orsibeth 1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God: do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitues nor homosexual offenders. NIV Besides the Bible doesn't have to mention the word homosexuality. Sometimes it say's man should not lay with another man. Also, it pretty easy to see God's plan for man. To be with one women and to reproduce. The thing is, God doesn't like any type of sexual immorality. He also doesn't like for us to put anything or any one before him. Anjela on the show appeared to live and breathe sex. The key to this passage is the Greek word "arsenokoitais". Because this word was not used in common Greek language Bible scholars are at odds on how it should be interpreted. Translations vary from “Sodomite” (Worrell) – referring to people who act like the people of Sodom, to “abusers of themselves with mankind” (KJ) to “homosexual” (e.g. NIV although NKJ translates the same word to be “Sodomite” in 1 Timothy 1:9-10). The best definition of this word that I’ve seen is found in an article titled "A New Look at Arsenokoitais" by Paul R. Johnson:
"The Greek compound term arseno-koitais literally means ‘the male who has many beds’. The word arsen means ‘male’, the adjective o means ‘the’, and the term koitais is defined as ‘many beds’. Thus, the entire phrase means a male with multiple bed-partners; a promiscuous man. Everywhere that the word koitais is used in the plural in the Bible denotes promiscuity. However, when the same word is used in the singular form, the Bible gives approval because the singular denotes monogamy."
Basically what we are talking about here is a man who sleeps around with little to no regard for themselves (i.e. “abuser of themselves with others”) or others (i.e. like the people of “Sodom”). Both attributes which clearly break the commandment of love.
The problem with interpreting is that not all homosexuals are promiscuously jump around from bed to bed with little regard for themselves or others. On the other hand there are clearly heterosexuals that DO fit this description. So we have to ask ourselves. Is Timothy decrying wanton promiscuity regardless of ones sexual orientation or is the focus of his text male homosexuality?
There are much better write ups on this passage of Scripture in www.gaychurch.org in the section titled "Gay and Christian?" but these thoughts should help. |
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October 21, 2005, 4:36 pm PDT
Quote From: saturn45 I am very concerned about all those Christians that claim to be good Christians and get on here and talk about gays. Wouldn't their energy be used for a better purpose if they were true followers of Jesus Christ if they could focus on ah just let me name a few. How about our homeless what about domestic violence what about child abuse what about our elderly in homes where no one goes to visit what about all of our aids Patience's how about our disabled how about all the ladies and gentlemen who are over serving in Iraq the ones that are fighting for the freedom that gives you the right to have free speech. Oh I could go on but i think you get what I am trying to say. Couldn't those so called Christians worry more about what they can do to serve some one instead of worrying about what someones sexual preference is. I know for a fact that most homosexuals are the most compassionate people you would ever want to meet. I know there are some exceptions to the rule but aren't there in all walks of life. And what makes a heterosexual think that God just chose them to be that way does it not feel normal for you to know who you are. Do you think that a homosexual just woke up one morning and said hey i want to make my life a living hell. I want people hurt me i want to hide my own true feelings. I want to be harassed. NO because just as a heterosexual knows who they are and how the feel so does a homosexual. I believe that a true follower of Jesus Christ is one who does not judge they want to walk with Jesus just as he did when he was here. He did not judge people he loved everyone it did not matter I think I read some where Jesus said I leave my peace My peace I give you. I did not read any where were it said go around and condemn and hate and fight amongst yourselves. There is no one who is free from some kind of sin. There was only one perfect person and they crucified him. IF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WANTED US TO BE GAY HE WOULD OF PUT US HERE THAT WAY BUT HE DIDNT HE STARTED WITH ADAM AND EVE (MAN AND WOMEN) LEV.18:22 THOU SHALT NOT LIE WITH MANKIND AS WITH WOMANKIND IT IS ABOMINATION.... LEV20:13 IF A MAN ALSO LIE WITH MANKIND AS HE LIETH WITH A WOMAN BOTH OF THEM HAVE COMMITTED AN ABOMINATION; THEY SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH; THEIR BLOOD SHALL BE UPON THEM FROM THE KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE . I DONT THINK ANYONE IS JUDGING ANYONE WE ARE TELLING WHAT THE HOLY WORD SAYS ITS WRONG (ABOMINATION). IF YOU GO TO CHURCH AND YOU REPENT YOUR SINS TO THE LORD AND HE SAVES YOU THEN YOU ARE NOT GOING TO WANT TO BE GAY BECAUSE WHEN HE SAVES YOU YOU WILL WANT TO TO DO RIGHT NOT WRONG. |
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October 21, 2005, 4:39 pm PDT
Quote From: intense3
Hello!!!!
I was reading the message board and came across your question and it is a great one!!! I hope you don't mind a long and in-depth answer but it is necessary to pay a lot of time and attention to your question in order to give it the answer it deserves.
To understand what is considered wrong about homosexuality and consensual sex in general, we must examine first who is saying it is wrong and why. First of all, God, the God of the Bible called Yahweh or YHWH in Hebrew, says that it is wrong. Because He has said this, people that believe in Him and His Word and follow Him are called Christians and also believe that it is wrong. The term Christian means Christ-like. It describes an individual who has given his/her life fully to Christ and declared His lordship over them. As a result of this declaration, this person's highest life's mission is to become like Christ in his/her inward spiritual condition as well as outward behavior. Christ lived His life with intergrity, love, genuiness, humility, and kindness. He stood for both love and justice. Now with regard to Christians, we must realize that not everyone who says they are a Christian really are. Not everyone that says they are Christians live their life like Christ did. And they are the one's that make people who live homosexual lifestyles hate God and what He stands for. They feel that Christians want to discriminate against them and treat them badly. Now, if you've read the Bible, you have found that Christ neither ridiculed nor rejected anyone based on their gender, race, creed, age, or socio-economic status. As a matter of fact, He came to break the societal and cultural rules set forth by the religious leaders, the Pharasees and Sadusees, who were not really religious and were discriminating against people. The only time we see Jesus angry (and this anger was righteous) was when He sees the Pharasees and Saducees treat people in this way by twisting God's word to fit their racisms and prejudices!!! Having said this, if a person claims to be under the Lordship of Christ, he will not do the very thing that Christ himself hated--twisting the word of God to discriminate against people. Bottom line: people who have twisted the bible to deny people rights or even kill people cannot, by definition, call themselves Christian!
Why homosexuality is wrong: As far as speaking out against homosexuality... We must first understand who God is before we can understand His rationale for His stance on homosexuality and other things that He says is sinful.
God is a God of Love! In fact God is Love (1 John 4th Chap Verse 8). As much as God is love, God is EQUALLY Just. That is to say, He is also a God of Justice (Psalms 9th Chapter Verse 16).
If God were only Loving and not Just then He could not be God because He would be unfair. Because He is loving and loves all His creation equally, He has to be fair in His justice.
Let's Look at His Love: Because God/Christ/Holy Spirit LOVES His creation so much, he lovingly set forth rules into the universe and in His Holy Word to govern the universe by. He did this because He knew that there would be things that people would do that would be harmful to themselves and others. God did not want people to harm themselves and/or others because He is the perfect Father. Just like any good father and mother sets rules that govern the household in order to protect their babies, toddlers, children, pre-teens, and teenagers from themselves. As we know from watching good parents structure their households and the legal structure that governs America, rules are good. We need them for order. And God is a God of Order.
Let's Look at His Justice: A God of Love that sets forth rules for the benefit of His creation must enforce these rules or the rules don't stand and if they don't stand then they don't protect the people they are intended to protect. So God has to make sure that the rules are followed and anyone who does not follow the rules have hurt themselves and/or someone else and must be dealt with. Now all of mankind can identify with God's desire for justice because we follow a legal system that sets up laws and punishes those who do not follow. For instance, if a person sees a woman on the street and assualts, rapes, and kills her everyone (hopefully) that heard the story would be outraged and cry out for justice. They would want to see to it that that person be charged and punished for his crime against her. The family of the woman would particularly feel this way. Well, God agrees. He punishes atrocities done to the innocent too. Now if God were only loving, He would see what happened to the woman and then say, well what the man did was wrong, but because I love him, I'm going to let him go scot free without any consequences to his actions. Would that be a good God? Of course not because that woman, her family, and the rest of the world needs to know that that kind of behavior will not be tolerated. Because He loves them He gives justice to the victim and also because He loves the offender, He does not let him get away with his wrong doing because that would not be good for him either. He would learn nothing and continue to do what he had done and hurt more and more people.
So now we see that God does not advocate people calling themselves Christians and at the same time discriminating against people. We also see that God is both and equally a Loving God and a Just God. So we see that He has given us rules that are for our own good. These rules include the 10 commandments (Deuteronomy 5th Chapter 6th-21 Verses), and other commandments. Included in the rules is the rule against sexual immorality as defined by looking upon someone with lust, masturbation, pornography, fornication (sex before marriage), adultery (sex with someone other than husband or wife), homosexuality and even beastiality (having sex with animals). While this definition may not be exhaustive, these behaviors are considered sin becuase they are committed against one's own body and God created the body as a temple for Himself ( 1 Corinthians Chap. 6 Verses 18-20). The first reason that homosexuality is wrong is because it destroys our relationship with God. If we are living in sin (homosexuality or any other sin) we cannot have fellowship and intimacy with God. So the first person that is being hurt as a result of our sin is ourselves. No relationship with God means no happiness, no peace, no sense or a false sense of safety and security, continual worry and stress, and eventually death. The only way for us to avoid these bad things is a relationship with God and He knows that and does NOT want us to have terrible lives so He does not want us living in sin. He also considers sexual immorality sin because it has horrific consequences for the doer and people around him/her. Lust is disrespectful towards the object of the lust and can be the motivational factors in acts of rape and child molestation. We know that rape and child molestation hurts and destroys other people and God does not want this. Masturbation is sinful because it is virtually impossible to masturbate without the element of lust. Lust hurts you because it breaks your relationship with God, but it can also be harmful in marriage because if a person is being sexually satisfied by someone other than the spouse including himself, it creates feelings of inadequacy and insecurity for the spouse and also leaves the spouse sexually unsatisfied. As a result, the spouse is likely to cheat (adultery) which is also considered sinful. Now masturbation that was thought to only affect the person who is masturbated has over time caused the person's spouse to sin by having an affair. Also, if you think back to your first experience with masturbation I'm sure there were feelings of guilt and/or discomfort after it was done. God doesn't want us living in guilt so He doesn't want us living in sin. Pornography also utilizes lust and masturbation and can have devistating effects on the spouse of the person engaged in pornography. The person is left feeling betrayed, hurt, angry, and insecure--all of which are damaging to the marriage relationship. Trust is disolved and the marriage is left in shambles. Fornication is sinful again because of lust and the misuese of sex. Sex is beautiful and was given by God as a gift between husband and wife to bond them together and solidify the commitment and emotions within the marriage relationship. Outside the context of the marriage relationship, sex still has bonding effects, however, it usually only bonds one person to the other and pushes the other person away. It can be used to manipulate people or to destroy a peson's self worth. There are terrible consequences for people engaging in the powerful act of sex before marriage and God does not want us to have to deal with them so he tells us not to do it. Similarly sex with someone other than one's spouse has dire consequences that destroy relationships and God does not want this because he is the universe's Biggest Advocate of Relationships!!!!
As for homosexuality (men engaging in any sexual activity with men and lesbianism, women having any sexual activity with women) it is sinful because God created man for woman to be married because God loves marriage and the intimacy it brings. To be with someone of the same sex is to decide to not have the type of relationship that God has said was good. As a result of homosexuality in both the early Greek and Roman culture woman were made to be second class citizens and were discriminated against. It was not God's desire that women be treated this way. We can still see how homosexuality and lesbianism causes rifts between the sexes. Feministic lesbians bash men and are disrespectful and mean towards them in the same way that homosexual men of the past were mean and hurtful to women. So homosexuality causes devision between the sexes, uses lust, masturbation, and pornography, and has broken up marriages after one spouse has found out another has had homosexual or lesbian sex. When these marriages break up, children are hurt and brokenhearted in the process. Furthermore, it makes the marriage relationship between a man and woman impossible. And if a person is in a heterosexual marriage but chooses to engage in homosexual sex, that is still sex outside of marriage (adultery, and we know how hurtful adultery is) and is still sin! Can you see now why God declares sexual immorality or sex outside of marriage sinful? Do you see how it hurts people? Do you see how it hurts God?
This type of behavior hurts God's feelings because His greatest desire is to have an intimate relationship with all of us. But our sin has broken our relationship with Him. He knows that a relationship with Him through Jesus Christ is the only way for us to break free of these sexual sins as well as any other sin. Jesus Christ gave His life up so we don't have to continue living frustrated and sad lives as a result of our sin. If we believe in Him and accept Him as our Lord and Savior and confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us and restore us to our right positions in His kingdom. We will no longer only be His creation but we will be His Children.
There is a huge debate going on that says that homosexuality has its origin in either nature (biology or genetics) or nurture (learned behavior). I attest that it is neither!!! While there are behavioral implications associated with homosexuality ie. having sexual interactions with someone of the same sex, the origins of homosexuality is SPIRITUAL. It is a spiritual condition that millions of people deal with everyday. So many people who struggle with homosexuality have been hurt and frustrated in trying to come to terms with what they feel is a part of themselves. They often go through periods of denial and try to live a life absent of homosexual behavior to no avail. It is not surprising that people try so hard to stop having homosexual feelings and finally give up and decide to accept the feelings. The Bible tells us that we have no power over sin and if homosexuality is a sin then it stands to reason that we have no power over homosexuality. So it makes no sense to try to stop living a homosexual lifestyle on our own.
There is still hope!!! God knew that we could not defeat homosexuality by ourselves and He does not expect us to! So in the most loving act ever done, He made Himself into flesh, was born of a virgin, and lived a perfect life among us to show us how. He was Jesus Christ and Christ was God in the flesh. If that was not enough, he was beaten, brusied, ridiculed, embarrassed, harassed, and ultimately killed so that we no longer have to be slaves to sin (homosexuality). Guess what? God knows exactly how each person struggling with homosexuality feels. He too has been made fun of, been outcasted, talked about, not accepted, and even brutalized. Even still, He willingly gave His life so that none of us would have to experience the tragedy of a life marred by sin (homosexuality) because it is so painful. A person struggling in this way and wants to be free must give his life to Christ. I can tell you exactly how this works but that was not your question and I have written extensively already. But if you are interested in know how this works and how a person can be free from homosexuality and the pain associated with it, please e mail me or respond to this response. My e mail address is intense1913@yahoo.com. I hope I have illustrated what it is about homosexuality and consensual sex that is "terribly evil", who exactly is being hurt, and where the harm is.
You have dedicated a lot of space and careful biblical references to just tell me that homosexuality is a sin because God doesn't like it. I didn't ask why it's a sin. I asked what harm does it do? It is arguing in circles to tell me that it's harmful because its' a sin (God doesn't like it) and that the reason it's harmful is that it's a sin. You have tried to strengthen this non-response with sweeping claims about homosexuals = "Feministic lesbians bash men and are disrespectful and mean towards them in the same way that homosexual men of the past were mean and hurtful to women. So homosexuality causes devision between the sexes, uses lust, masturbation, and pornography, and has broken up marriages after one spouse has found out another has had homosexual or lesbian sex. "
First of all being a lesbian doesn't necessarily depend on hating men. I have lesbian friends who are not in the least hateful. Conversely being gay doesn't depend on hating women. In fact, many gay men are very good friends with women. If gays, lesbians 'disrespect' heterosexuals it's probably because the heterosexuals like yourself condemn them. - Another vicious circle. You are simply imposing your rigid view that sexual relations have to be with the opposite sex when you say that homosexuals 'divide' the sexes. If the sexes are heterosexual, homosexuals can hardly divide them. The next circular argument you offer is that homosexuality is wrong because it makes heterosexual relationships impossible. Well if that is supposed to be the purpose of homosexuals , they have failed miserably, since heterosexual marriages are being made everyday. Neverthelsss,the divorce rates are almost 50%, and not because the partners have turned gay. That's a ridiculous statistic.
The gist of the 'harm' done is that homosexuality is not heterosexuality which is just saying that homosexuality is harmful because it's homosexuality. That's not an answer.
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October 21, 2005, 4:43 pm PDT
Quote From: intense3 It sounds like you are saying that people should mind their own business. Is that true? Well if I follow your logic and apply it to another situation it may look like this: I'm walking down the street and I see a teenage girl who is standing directly in front of me. She has a razor in one hand and her other wrist is exposed. As I walk toward her, I see her take the razor and drag it repeatedly across her wrist. Should I watch her do it and mind my own business? Should I disregard her dying condition and instead nurse my own cuts that I may have gathered that day? Your logic says that I should NOT call 9-1-1, bandage her wounds, stay with her till the paramedics are there to treat her and contact her family. According to your logic, I should just mind my own business.
Does that sound like a good thing to do to you? Does that sound loving?
In the situation above, if I were to decide whether I would help or not help I needed to make a JUDGEMENT. I would have to decide whether the wounds were bad enough to warrant the help of paramedics, I would need to judge the girl's mental condition to decide whether or not she would need mental help after the dilemma was over and I would need to make judgements on the people around us to see if they would help and in what ways they could. Judgements get a bad rap but to judge is basically a critical analysis, appraisal or assessment of something. While it is not anyone's place except God's to judge a person, we all are able and rightfully so, to judge a behavior. When you truly love people you are concerned about them all the time, especially, when they are doing something (behavior) that will hurt themselves or others. A real Christian is a person who is being transformed by Christ to become like Christ. When this happens, a person develops a heart like Christ and they begin to feel about humanity the way that God does. God is concerned about all of us. He does not want us doing things that are harmful to us or others. That's what all His rules are about: protecting us from doing things that hurt us or others because He loves us so much!!!! God is our Heavenly Father and He wants to protect us from danger. Any good parents sets up rules for their kids so that they won't get hurt, right? That is the same thing that God does because of His love. Now that same good parent must enforce those rules or they won't protect the kids right? And if the kid does not follow the rules, the kid has to be disciplined right? That is the same thing God does for us because He loves us. His discipline proves He loves us and that He is good.
God is equally loving and Just!!! He both loves us and judges our behavior. That is everything we do right and everything we do wrong. He sets the rules for right and wrong because He is perfect and loving so His rules are right. He tells us what is right and wrong in His Holy Word, The Bible. Some people are trying to show how this behavior is wrong because they care about people and don't want to see them hurt and as I stated earlier, if you truly love someone, you want them to do what is right so bad things won't happen as a result of their behavior. If you really love someone, you tell them the TRUTH. Just like if you are dating someone or are married to them you expect them to be honest with you--even when it hurts. That's what Christians are trying to do. Some can and must do it in a more loving fashion. But the truth still remains--they must do it. Kind of like the slogan "Friends don't let Friends drink and drive" because you know the consequences, Christians don't let fellow Christians or non-Christians continue to live in sin because we know the consequences. You say to let people live life to the fullest. Well the only way for people to do that is to accept Jesus Christ as lord and Savior. You say there are no second chances and that is so true so people must do what is right while there is still time!!!! The first way to love and help them is to tell them the truth about sin and then to tell them how much God loved them that he would make himself flesh, be born of a virgin, and live a perfect life among us to show us how to do it. After that much love, he loves us even more by allowing himself to be ridiculed, hurt, persecuted, embarrassed, harassed, beaten, bruised and even killed so that people can come out of sin which includes homosexuality and receive His full love and acceptance of them through their acceptance of Christ Jesus. I would love to talk with you some more about how this freedom is possible for all if you'd like. Just respond to this message. I appreciate your opinion and hope you have the same appreciation for mine. Have a great day!!!! THEIR IS A SECOND CHANCE THAT IS WHY THE BIBLE SAYS COME TO THE LORD AND REPENT OF YOUR SINS AND HE WILL SAVE YOU AND THAT GIVES YOU SECOND CHANCE TO LIVE YOUR LIFE FOR CHRIST WHICH MEANS DOING RIGHT NOT WRONG AGAINST ALL OF WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. GODS AMAZING GRACE WILL GIVE YOU ANOTHER CHANCE YOU JUST HAVE TO WANT IT. I GO DOWN TOWN WHERE I LIVE FOR A STREET MINISTRY TRYING TO TELL EVERY BODY ABOUT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND WHAT HE CAN DO FOR YOU. THE LORD WILL SAVE YOU IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE |
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October 21, 2005, 4:46 pm PDT
Greek contained no word which compares to the English noun "homosexual" meaning someone of homosexual orientation. In fact the word "homosexual" (meaning someone of homosexual orientation) was not even coined until the late 1800'S by German psychologists, and introduced into English only at the beginning of the 1900's. (See Christianity, Social Tolerance, and homosexuality, John Boswell, University of Chicago Press, 1980, page 42) However, during scriptural times there were a number of Greek words to describe homosexual sex acts and the two words "malakois" and "arsenokoitai" do not appear among them (on "arsenokoitai" see Boswell, pp 345-346.) So much for Cor 6 -9 |
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